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Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
Faith
Member
Posts: 29173
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 271 of 690 (836088)
07-09-2018 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by ringo
07-09-2018 2:46 PM


Re: Daniel: Maccabean versus Futurist
In the case of prophecy that is not yet fulfilled, there is not yet the reality needed to check the facts. Fear not, it will appear at the right time.

I really haven't mangled any facts, but PaulK has mangled a mess of them, from tne seventy weeks prophecy to the meaning of "Messiah the Prince" to the obvious identify of the fourth empire in two separate prophecies, to the confusing of two separate "little horns" that arise out of different empires. That's the mangling, I've done no mangling.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by ringo, posted 07-09-2018 2:46 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by PaulK, posted 07-09-2018 3:17 PM Faith has responded
 Message 274 by ringo, posted 07-09-2018 3:27 PM Faith has responded
 Message 279 by Phat, posted 07-09-2018 3:43 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14229
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 272 of 690 (836090)
07-09-2018 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by Faith
07-09-2018 3:10 PM


Re: Daniel: Maccabean versus Futurist
quote:

I really haven't mangled any facts, but PaulK has mangled a mess of them

Your interpretations are not facts. Funny how you can’t tell the difference. I seem to remember you accusing others of the same confusion. Falsely, as usual.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Faith, posted 07-09-2018 3:10 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by Faith, posted 07-09-2018 3:19 PM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29173
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 273 of 690 (836091)
07-09-2018 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by PaulK
07-09-2018 3:17 PM


Re: Daniel: Maccabean versus Futurist
Facts, not interpretations. Your manglings are interpretations that mess up the facts or ignore them.

FACTS

FOUR DIFFERNET EMPIRES, not three and another that is an offshoot of the third.

TWO DIFFERENT LITTLE HORNS. One comes out of the third kingdom and the other out of the fourth which is a separate kingdom/empire, not an offshoot of the third,

ONE MESSIAH THE PRINCE, no hint of two

Seventy weeks that go nowhere near the Maccabean period no matter how you fiddle with them

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by PaulK, posted 07-09-2018 3:17 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by PaulK, posted 07-09-2018 3:32 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 14912
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 274 of 690 (836092)
07-09-2018 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by Faith
07-09-2018 3:10 PM


Re: Daniel: Maccabean versus Futurist
Faith writes:

In the case of prophecy that is not yet fulfilled, there is not yet the reality needed to check the facts.


You're making the mistake of assuming that the prophecy will be fulfilled. And you're compounding the mistake by assuming that the prophecy will be fulfilled according to your preconceived interpretation. There's no room in your thinking for the possibility that the prophecy failed.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Faith, posted 07-09-2018 3:10 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by Faith, posted 07-09-2018 3:30 PM ringo has responded
 Message 276 by jar, posted 07-09-2018 3:31 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29173
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 275 of 690 (836093)
07-09-2018 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by ringo
07-09-2018 3:27 PM


Re: Daniel: Maccabean versus Futurist
that is correct. There is absolutely no room in my thinking for the prophecy to fail. Absolutely none. I assume it is yet to be fulfilled because that is how God's word works. And my interpretations preserve the facts intact.

Wait and see.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by ringo, posted 07-09-2018 3:27 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by ringo, posted 07-09-2018 3:41 PM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30710
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 276 of 690 (836094)
07-09-2018 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by ringo
07-09-2018 3:27 PM


Re: Daniel: Maccabean versus Futurist
Until a prophecy is fulfilled it is still failed prophecy.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by ringo, posted 07-09-2018 3:27 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by Phat, posted 07-09-2018 4:11 PM jar has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14229
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 277 of 690 (836095)
07-09-2018 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by Faith
07-09-2018 3:19 PM


Re: Daniel: Maccabean versus Futurist
quote:

Facts, not interpretations

The identification of the messiahs is interpretation. The identification of the empires is interpretation. The identification of the “little horns” is interpretation.

So I disagree with your interpretation on all three points. That’s not mangling the facts. Never mind that my interpretations fit better with the actual text of Daniel than yours.

And to deal with Faith’s edit the only one that is a fact is the number of empires. And I don’t mangle that, at all.

Even the translated text allows for two messiahs, and I understand that the Masoretic text insists on it.

The claim that the “little horns” are different is just an opinion with no real foundation in the text. And, it must be said, that it would be very unlikely that Antiochus fit Daniel 7 so well by mere chance.

So, no, no mangled facts. Just the usual falsehoods from Faith.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Faith, posted 07-09-2018 3:19 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 14912
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 278 of 690 (836096)
07-09-2018 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by Faith
07-09-2018 3:30 PM


Re: Daniel: Maccabean versus Futurist
Faith writes:

I assume it is yet to be fulfilled because that is how God's word works.


You believe the Bible because of fulfilled prophecy and you believe the prophecy will be fulfilled because the Bible is always right. Your reasoning is circular - which is why it doesn' t produce results that fit reality.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Faith, posted 07-09-2018 3:30 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Phat, posted 07-09-2018 3:48 PM ringo has responded
 Message 288 by Faith, posted 07-09-2018 4:42 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10971
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 279 of 690 (836097)
07-09-2018 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by Faith
07-09-2018 3:10 PM


Misdirecting The Audience
Going further with this analogy.....

jar writes:

The author of 2 Peter had to make up an explanation of why that is not a failure.

Are you suggesting that the motive for writing 2nd Peter was essentially job security within a new religion? And you guys think we are the loons!

Yes, we could be wrong. But so could you. You do not see scripture as we see scripture. You have no need or expectation for Jesus to return. Even if such a global event happened, the secular scientists would likely write it off as a UFO visitation or some such drivel.

Im with Faith on this one. You claim that *we* misdirect the audience. I say that it is you who misdirect the audience. You teach them to critically examine the Bible to such a degree that they are taught essentially what you believe---that humans make up gods and are essentially responsible for their own future.

In our minds, this is exactly what is prophesied to happen. We believe that God communicated with humanity through the Bible...and though the books were written by men, they were men who were inspired to encourage, edify, teach and warn others about the coming judgment. These authors were not marketing a product in order to earn a living or to start a new religion, though jar makes a well-presented case that they did.

jar prefers Jesus to be a Jewish son who was a good teacher and yet who never changed Judaism...probably because his Mama was Jewish and he gained a great deal of common sense, logic, reason, and reality through learning from that point of view. Additionally, jar grew up seeing the conmen of Christianity so much that it became ingrained into his belief that they all were trying to market and sell a sizzle to replace the hard work and responsibility of Judaism. (he will likely claim I am misrepresenting him, only because he likes to frame the lesson and have the last word)

Most apologists are not con men.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Faith, posted 07-09-2018 3:10 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by ringo, posted 07-09-2018 3:52 PM Phat has responded
 Message 290 by jar, posted 07-09-2018 5:41 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10971
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 280 of 690 (836098)
07-09-2018 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by ringo
07-09-2018 3:41 PM


Re: Daniel: Maccabean versus Futurist
ringo,to faith writes:

You believe the Bible because of fulfilled prophecy and you believe the prophecy will be fulfilled because the Bible is always right. Your reasoning is circular - which is why it doesn' t produce results that fit reality.

We believe that reality shows us two imaginations.
Gods imagination which will come to pass.

And human imagination. Vain. Self serving.

If the source of any given prophecy is the authors own imagination, it will fail.

If the source of any given prophecy is God Himself, it *will* come to pass. Period.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by ringo, posted 07-09-2018 3:41 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by ringo, posted 07-09-2018 3:59 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 286 by PaulK, posted 07-09-2018 4:22 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14912
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 281 of 690 (836099)
07-09-2018 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by Phat
07-09-2018 3:43 PM


Re: Misdirecting The Audience
Phat writes:

Are you suggesting that the motive for writing 2nd Peter was essentially job security within a new religion?


You're being dishonest. If it was any religion but your own, that's exactly what you'd be suggesting. You know very well that people would do that.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Phat, posted 07-09-2018 3:43 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by Phat, posted 07-09-2018 4:00 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14912
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 282 of 690 (836100)
07-09-2018 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Phat
07-09-2018 3:48 PM


Re: Daniel: Maccabean versus Futurist
Phat writes:

If the source of any given prophecy is the authors own imagination, it will fail.

If the source of any given prophecy is God Himself, it *will* come to pass. Period.


How do you tell the difference? How do you know what is God's imagination and what is your imagination about God's imagination?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Phat, posted 07-09-2018 3:48 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10971
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 283 of 690 (836101)
07-09-2018 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by ringo
07-09-2018 3:52 PM


Re: Misdirecting The Audience
If it was any religion but your own, that's exactly what you'd be suggesting.
Point taken. And you will again ask me how I know that my interpretation is any closer to the truth than any other.

Essentially I am saying that humans will never self-correct their future.

You are saying that they have no choice. You do not see that a relationship with God is possible.

jar will go a step further and ask me to explain how it is possible.

But am I right in that you market personal responsibility and the idea that humans alone will change the world or die trying? Am I right in that you market that there is no rescuer...no bailout...no hope outside of ourselves?

If so I rest my case. We disagree.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by ringo, posted 07-09-2018 3:52 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by ringo, posted 07-09-2018 4:11 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14912
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 284 of 690 (836102)
07-09-2018 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by Phat
07-09-2018 4:00 PM


Re: Misdirecting The Audience
Phat writes:

Am I right in that you market that there is no rescuer...no bailout...no hope outside of ourselves?


Marketing is offering a product. I'm saying there is no product, no snake oil that will fix everything that ails you. So I wouldn't say I'm marketing anything. Promising nothing but blood, sweat, toil and tears is not what I would call marketing.

(It occurs to me that that's about what God promised Adam and Eve when they grew up.)


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Phat, posted 07-09-2018 4:00 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10971
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 285 of 690 (836103)
07-09-2018 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by jar
07-09-2018 3:31 PM


Re: Daniel: Maccabean versus Futurist
Until a prophecy is fulfilled it is still failed prophecy.
Until a messiah returns, he is still a failed messiah according to you.

Some folks wouldn't even want Him back. They would rather try and succeed (or fail) on their own merits. It is how they were taught.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by jar, posted 07-09-2018 3:31 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by jar, posted 07-09-2018 5:58 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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