Predestination doesn't affect your personal responsibility.
Predestination means that whatever you do - responsible or otherwise - will not affect the outcome. If it doesn't mean that, then you're using the wrong word.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
Since you can't know what is predestinated for you all you can do is what you would do anyway. In other words it makes absolutely no difference to one's daily life.
Since you can't know what is predestinated for you all you can do is what you would do anyway. In other words it makes absolutely no difference to one's daily life.
According to Calvin and Calvinism it also will make absolutely no difference in your eternal life. Regardless of what you do if you are predestined to go to hell you will go to hell. That is the reason the God Calvin created and marketed is so utterly evil and despicable; worthy of nothing but scorn not approbation.
Evidently according to the Bible Judas was doomed from the get-go.
quote:"While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled." -- John 17:12 (NIV)
When discussing my personal belief in God with others, I never limit myself to Calvinism or even to what the Bible literally says. Everyone should know by now that any description that we have of God...whether it be the One I market or the One YOU market, we are only describing our understanding of GOD...which is by necessity limited. Where you and I disagree is that you present God as only a description---a character created by others. I try and present God as real...apart from human attempts at description. Cathy Lee Gifford did this recently on National TV (on the liberal show, The View) and I must say that I am proud of her for getting to have her say publically.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
It is always interesting to read the opinions of others...no matter who they are or with what so-called authority they speak. We are, after all, humans and everyman's opinion should be considered if not respected. Here are some choice ones to add fuel to our predictable conversations here at EvC:
quote: I believe that people in certain ROLES are created to go to hell. And the way for them to be saved is to abandon that role. For instance, Pontius Pilate seemed to be one step away from believing in Jesus. Suppose he had taken the last step and said, "I believe in Jesus, he is a righteous man, I will not let you crucify him" (as he came close to doing). Then the Jews would have retorted, "You are not a friend of Caesar," got him kicked out of his position of authority, and had him replaced with someone that would crucify Jesus. But PONTIUS PILATE would have been saved, and the other man would have gone to hell. (The same might be true for Pharoah, if he had let the Israelites go free. But then he might have been overthrown by another, more ruthless ruler. On the other hand, Pharoah's DAUGHTER protected Moses and probably earned a place in heaven.) On the other hand, the jailer of Paul and Silas set them free, and invited them to his home, and was saved. Essentially, he had abandoned his earlier role of being their jailer.
And then this exchange:
quote:So you're saying that if you don't believe while alive, you die and go to hell, where you're given another chance to accept Him and go to Heaven? — Nathan Wheeler Aug 24 '11 at 3:25 That is correct. There are people who will not get a chance in life to here about Christ. Or they will go against God because of false teachings. Those that end up in hell will be given the truth in such a way as to know it without a doubt. This will still be an unpleasant experience because of the realization of the sins they have committed. But they will then be able to make a fully informed choice. Only people that reject Christ at that point will be permanently destroyed after the day of judgment. — Jaguir Aug 24 '11 at 3:36
Can you provide any sort of Scriptural basis for this theory? — Nathan Wheeler Aug 24 '11 at 3:40 Here are some references: righteous spirits are assigned to Paradise (Revelation 2:7), unrighteous spirits are assigned to hell (Psalm 55:15), Gospel preached to spirits in hell (1 Peter 4:6), Christ preaches to spirits in prison (hell) (1 Peter 3:18-19), Death and hell will be will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14) — Jaguir Aug 24 '11 at 3:53
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Actually Phat, your quote simply is another example of false prophesy and self-created fulfillment.
John 17:12 writes:
"While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled."
Stop just searching for passages that you think MIGHT support your position. Go back and read John 17 in context. That means reading John 16 and John 15 and John 18 and John 19 ...
What you post is a great example of John the revisionist, of John the creator of a new mythos; of John creating a new Jesus.
First, the passage you quote takes place even before Jesus is arrested.
At that time, no disciple had been lost.
There is no evidence that Jesus protected any disciple.
There is no evidence that any disciple died to fulfill some prophesy.
Phat writes:
I try and present God as real...apart from human attempts at description.
Since you can't know what is predestinated for you all you can do is what you would do anyway. In other words it makes absolutely no difference to one's daily life.
That almost stuck to the wall. So you're saying that the way you live your life doesn't matter whether there's a God or not.
But that's not what I'm talking about here. Tangle says of course he wants eternal life so I'm saying he has the responsibility to seek it if that is so, and that means he has the responsibility to find out that salvation is by faith alone and to seek that faith.
Let me help you out here. The scripture you quoted is consistent with my beliefs. I'd also add that Christians are charged with trying to lead folks to Christ. That's how I know that Calvinism is a bunch of do-hickey. If Calvinists are correct, then what I think and what I do are irrelevant because not one of our efforts can make a hill of beans differences. And according to what you have espoused, a belief that what a human can do does make a difference is some kind of false pride in our own abilities and works.
Well, guess what? Faith without works is dead.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
Calvinists are big on evangelism which wouldn't be the case with your kind of straw man hyperCalvinism. And guess what, works FOLLOW and are motivated by faith.
Stop just searching for passages that you think MIGHT support your position. Go back and read John 17 in context. That means reading John 16 and John 15 and John 18 and John 19 ...
OK I am now reading John 15 through John 19.
jar writes:
What you post is a great example of John the revisionist, of John the creator of a new mythos; of John creating a new Jesus.
This is not the only way to view John. How you describe what the Bible means is not how everyone describes how and what it means.
Comments on John 15: Granted this chapter shows a different portrayal of Jesus than Matthew 25 and the synoptics.
John 15:5-7 writes:
"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.
The emphasis is that apart from remaining in communion with Jesus nothing you do will be successful. This contrasts with your charge to simply go and do on your own, being imitators of Christ yet not needing to remain "in Him".
The emphasis is that apart from remaining in communion with Jesus nothing you do will be successful.
Classic example of the John word salad marketing; sounds great but is utter nonsense.
If someone who has never even heard of Jesus feeds the hungry, clothes the naked, heals the sick, shelters the homeless, protects the weak, comforts the sorrowful, teaches the children are the hungry not fed, the naked not clothed, the sick not healed, the homeless not sheltered, the weak not protected, the sorrowful not comforted or the children not taught?
John markets a great easy to sell product but what does it even mean?
How do you remain in communion with Jesus?
What does that even mean?
And what I post is what is actually written in John, not interpretation.
The passage you quoted takes place even before Jesus is arrested.
At that time, no disciple had been lost.
There is no evidence that Jesus protected any disciple.
There is no evidence that any disciple died to fulfill some prophesy.
Those are not interpretations but rather facts based on what was actually written in those parts of John.
Calvinists are big on evangelism which wouldn't be the case with your kind of straw man hyperCalvinism.
Do we really need to go through the exercise of quoting what Calvin himself said about the doctrine? Again?
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
The emphasis is that apart from remaining in communion with Jesus nothing you do will be successful.
Wouldn't "being in communion" include doing what He told you to do - e.g. in Matthew 25? Didn't you notice the similarity between throwing the useless branches into the fire (John) and throwing the useless goats into everlasting fire (Matthew)?
According to Calvin and Calvinism it also will make absolutely no difference in your eternal life. Regardless of what you do if you are predestined to go to hell you will go to hell. That is the reason the God Calvin created and marketed is so utterly evil and despicable; worthy of nothing but scorn not approbation.
Predestination is BIBLICAL, election is BIBLICAL, Calvin merely discussed it in his theology, but it was also taught by Luther and all the other Reformers. What you all are arguing with is the usual "hyperCalivinism." It is certainly true that whatever God has decreed can't be broken, but again, since we don't have a clue about what He has decreed in any individual's case, at least before they show unmistakable evidence of being born again, then we simply try to persuade people of the gospel and hope they will be saved. If anyone has a desire to be saved they certainly can be. If someone has absolutely no belief, no faith, and no interest in the things of God throughout life until death THEN we can say God predestined them to Hell, but not before. "
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