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Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 526 of 1581 (836891)
07-23-2018 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 525 by Faith
07-23-2018 6:49 PM


Re: Some sources
Faith writes:

As I keep saying, in the end we are responsible for the choice, we can accept or reject it, and nobody knows whether Tangle is predestined to salvation or not.

If Tangle is predestined for salvation and he continues to reject Christianity in any and all of its many flavors...Calvinism says Tangle will be saved.

If Tangle is predestined for damnation and he accepts Christianity in any any of its many flavors...Calvinism says Tangle will be damned.

That is what ones gets from a vile evil theology that worships a vile evil God like Calvinism.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 525 by Faith, posted 07-23-2018 6:49 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 527 of 1581 (836894)
07-23-2018 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 525 by Faith
07-23-2018 6:49 PM


Re: Some sources
What I am saying there is that he keeps rejecting and denying everything that would lead him to salvation, so of course he is not doing what is necessary to receive the eternal life he says he wants. S

That is not what you said. I quoted you verbatim. Your post did not contain any additional context that allows interpretation to be what you are saying now. If you had said what you claim, I would not have bothered with this line of discussion. Why you would even bother to lie is something that continues to astonish me.

Your actual statement again:

You've made it impossible for yourself to have the eternal life you say you want.

You did not say, "if you continue in that vein", or "You'd better change your evil ways", etc.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 525 by Faith, posted 07-23-2018 6:49 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 528 by Faith, posted 07-24-2018 12:20 AM NoNukes has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29820
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 528 of 1581 (836898)
07-24-2018 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 527 by NoNukes
07-23-2018 9:04 PM


Re: Some sources
You didn't read it in context, you took it to mean something final and permanent when if you'd read it in the context of the biblical quotes it wshould be obvious it was describing what he was actually doing and presumably he could stop doing it and do something else. OK it could have been clearer but what is this determination to read out of context and insist I meant something I obviously didn't mean? I didn't mean GOD was stopping him from being saved, just that what HE was doing was preventing it. I don't know why I put it that way, maybe because it didn't seem like he'd ever do anything else, but theoretically he could always change and do something else; one can ALWAYS STIL BE SAVED. As long as there is life there is hope./

This is what they are all doing to Trump toop.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 527 by NoNukes, posted 07-23-2018 9:04 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 529 by NoNukes, posted 07-24-2018 12:42 AM Faith has responded
 Message 535 by herebedragons, posted 07-24-2018 12:33 PM Faith has responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 529 of 1581 (836901)
07-24-2018 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 528 by Faith
07-24-2018 12:20 AM


Re: Some sources
You didn't read it in context, you took it to mean something final and permanent when if you'd read it in the context of the biblical

I quoted you verbatim. My quote included every word that you used. If your Bible quotes were at odds with what you actually said, that certainly would not be the first time that happened this thread.

I didn't mean GOD was stopping him from being saved,

Nor did I suggest that. Your statement but all of that responsibility on Tangle. Your statement was that he had made it impossible to be saved. If there is some meaning of the word impossible other than that saying that an impossible event cannot occur, please point that out.

ABE:

Or better yet. How about if you take responsibility for your own statements. I certainly don't mind if you retract or correct them. I did not mean that, would be enough.

Of course, the problem here is the impact on your other arguments. But in this case, putting things to right might actually help you argue your case.

Instead, I see you doubling down. Jumping into the martyr bed with Trump. Not persuasive.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 528 by Faith, posted 07-24-2018 12:20 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 530 by Faith, posted 07-24-2018 12:53 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29820
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 530 of 1581 (836904)
07-24-2018 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 529 by NoNukes
07-24-2018 12:42 AM


Re: Some sources
Tangle has no interest in any of this. If you really think he read me to say it is impossible for him to be saved rather than that his own behavior prevents it, then you can clarify for him.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 529 by NoNukes, posted 07-24-2018 12:42 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 531 by Tangle, posted 07-24-2018 3:03 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 533 by GDR, posted 07-24-2018 10:29 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6178
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 531 of 1581 (836906)
07-24-2018 3:03 AM
Reply to: Message 530 by Faith
07-24-2018 12:53 AM


Re: Some sources
Faith writes:

Tangle has no interest in any of this. If you really think he read me to say it is impossible for him to be saved rather than that his own behavior prevents it, then you can clarify for him.

Just for the record, as well as the ultimate smuggness of declaring your own salvation you've damned me to hell many times. “Boy are you going to be surprised” was my favourite.

Now, with this predestination crap, it seems that both of us might be surprised, but for different reasons.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 530 by Faith, posted 07-24-2018 12:53 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 532 by jar, posted 07-24-2018 8:14 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 534 by NoNukes, posted 07-24-2018 12:32 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 532 of 1581 (836911)
07-24-2018 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 531 by Tangle
07-24-2018 3:03 AM


Re: Some sources
Tangle writes:

Now, with this predestination crap, it seems that both of us might be surprised, but for different reasons.

Back to Matt 25 and the sheep & goats.

Both get surprised; those that claimed "When have we not done for you?" as well as those who asked "What the hell have I ever done for you?".


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 531 by Tangle, posted 07-24-2018 3:03 AM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 536 by NoNukes, posted 07-24-2018 12:35 PM jar has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4500
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 533 of 1581 (836920)
07-24-2018 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 530 by Faith
07-24-2018 12:53 AM


Re: Some sources
Faith writes:

Tangle has no interest in any of this. If you really think he read me to say it is impossible for him to be saved rather than that his own behavior prevents it, then you can clarify for him.

How about this quote from Luke chap 6.

quote:
37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned.

By focusing on who is in and who is out completely misses the point of Christ's message. Jesus' message was clear. It is all about love of God and His goodness and love of our neighbour. We choose lives that are based on love of self even at the expense of others, or iove of others even at the expense of the self.

I suggest that we should stop worrying about whether we are saved or not and get on with spreading God's gift of love to our neighbours, and let God worry about who is in or out. Once again just follow what is in my signature.

Frankly I'm not feeling the love.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 530 by Faith, posted 07-24-2018 12:53 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 534 of 1581 (836926)
07-24-2018 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 531 by Tangle
07-24-2018 3:03 AM


Re: Some sources
Just for the record, as well as the ultimate smuggness of declaring your own salvation you've damned me to hell many times.

Faith has posted about giggling when folks find out that they are condemned to hell. That's way beyond smug.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 531 by Tangle, posted 07-24-2018 3:03 AM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 537 by ringo, posted 07-24-2018 12:36 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1483
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 535 of 1581 (836927)
07-24-2018 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 528 by Faith
07-24-2018 12:20 AM


Re: Some sources
what HE was doing was preventing it. I don't know why I put it that way, maybe because it didn't seem like he'd ever do anything else, but theoretically he could always change and do something else;

Personally, I was floored to hear you make this comment, since you have been adamant in the past that there is nothing we can personally do to affect our own salvation. We cannot move towards God or salvation unless God moves us to do so. Have you recanted that position and now believe that it is our own actions and deeds that either bring us to salvation or keep us from it?

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 528 by Faith, posted 07-24-2018 12:20 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 539 by Faith, posted 07-24-2018 12:54 PM herebedragons has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 536 of 1581 (836928)
07-24-2018 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 532 by jar
07-24-2018 8:14 AM


Re: Some sources
Both get surprised; those that claimed "When have we not done for you?" as well as those who asked "What the hell have I ever done for you?".

I sometimes wonder if dispensationalism was invented solely because some Christiany folks did not like the implications of Chapter 25 of Matthew.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 532 by jar, posted 07-24-2018 8:14 AM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 538 by herebedragons, posted 07-24-2018 12:39 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15398
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 537 of 1581 (836929)
07-24-2018 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 534 by NoNukes
07-24-2018 12:32 PM


Re: Some sources
NoNukes writes:

Faith has posted about giggling when folks find out that they are condemned to hell.


But she feels bad about gloating. God forgives her for gloating and then she goes and gloats some more.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 534 by NoNukes, posted 07-24-2018 12:32 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1483
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 538 of 1581 (836930)
07-24-2018 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 536 by NoNukes
07-24-2018 12:35 PM


Re: Some sources
I don't see the connection between dispensationalism and Matthew 25...

maybe you meant something other than dispensationalism?


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 536 by NoNukes, posted 07-24-2018 12:35 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29820
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 539 of 1581 (836935)
07-24-2018 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 535 by herebedragons
07-24-2018 12:33 PM


Re: Some sources
Personally, I was floored to hear you make this comment, since you have been adamant in the past that there is nothing we can personally do to affect our own salvation. We cannot move towards God or salvation unless God moves us to do so. Have you recanted that position and now believe that it is our own actions and deeds that either bring us to salvation or keep us from it?

This is why I wish we could just not talk aboujt Calvinism, it is too hard to explain it. Yes we cannot do anything to be saved, it is all God's doing, but then when people treat that as meaning they might as well just stop doing anything at all because it's all futile, I have to disagree with that. We've been talking about predestination here and this gets treated that way, everything is futile then. And I can lose track of the context myself as the conversation wanders so I don't know if I'm saying anything helpful or not. But the fact that God is totally in charge of everything really does not affect what we do at all. In some sense everything we do is "in God's will" anyway. But if anyone wants to be saved nothing is preventing it, you do whatever you know to do to be saved and that includes praying for it. If anyone shows that much interest I'd suggest God is motivating it. But this whole discussion just gets wacko so fast. The idea of election and predestination are really meant to be reassurances to those who have been walking with God for a long time.; As an intellectual subject it's just too confusing, and all the more confusing when it gets into questions about unbelievers being saved or not.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 535 by herebedragons, posted 07-24-2018 12:33 PM herebedragons has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 540 by ringo, posted 07-24-2018 1:07 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 541 by herebedragons, posted 07-24-2018 1:19 PM Faith has responded
 Message 542 by Tangle, posted 07-24-2018 1:24 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15398
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 540 of 1581 (836936)
07-24-2018 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 539 by Faith
07-24-2018 12:54 PM


Re: Some sources
Faith writes:

The idea of election and predestination are really meant to be reassurances to those who have been walking with God for a long time.


Yes, it's like whistling in the dark. It's to reassure yourself that you're okay even if in reality you're not. It's avoidance.

Faith writes:

As an intellectual subject it's just too confusing....


Nonsense often is confusing.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 539 by Faith, posted 07-24-2018 12:54 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
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