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Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
JonF
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(4)
Message 601 of 1581 (837625)
08-06-2018 8:55 PM



  
jaywill
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From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005
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Message 602 of 1581 (837860)
08-10-2018 7:14 AM


As far as I could tell most of this discussion is about outward indications and evidences about Christ's second coming. If I entered the discussion I would put much more emphasis on spiritual catalysts leading to and causing Christ's second coming.

In Revelation 19, for example, its says that the bride has made herself ready. This is the wooing and compelling impetus for a longing Christ to come again for at least a representative remnant who prepare themselves to be in total union of love with Him.

Am I right that that aspect has been less developed here ?


Replies to this message:
 Message 603 by Phat, posted 08-10-2018 7:29 AM jaywill has responded
 Message 604 by Faith, posted 08-10-2018 8:07 AM jaywill has responded
 Message 627 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-11-2018 2:12 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
Phat
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Posts: 11579
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 603 of 1581 (837861)
08-10-2018 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 602 by jaywill
08-10-2018 7:14 AM


The Bride Ain't Ready
jaywill writes:

If I entered the discussion I would put much more emphasis on spiritual catalysts leading to and causing Christ's second coming.
In Revelation 19, for example, its says that the bride has made herself ready. This is the wooing and compelling impetus for a longing Christ to come again for at least a representative remnant who prepare themselves to be in total union of love with Him.

Am I right that that aspect has been less developed here?

The concept would be entertained, but any potential members who self-identify with the Bride would be challenged to provide evidence that we were indeed ready for such a union and whether we were being a proper Bride through our behaviors and actions here in the present time.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

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Faith
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Posts: 30162
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 604 of 1581 (837864)
08-10-2018 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 602 by jaywill
08-10-2018 7:14 AM


I took it as about biblical prophecy of the timing of events, but I don't think it would be off topic to get into some specific spiritual issues related to all that.

I've recently been getting more attracted to the idea of the "pre-tribulation Rapture" which has never completely convinced me. What is your view of that?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
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jaywill
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Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 605 of 1581 (837865)
08-10-2018 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 603 by Phat
08-10-2018 7:29 AM


Re: The Bride Ain't Ready
The concept would be entertained, but any potential members who self-identify with the Bride would be challenged to provide evidence that we were indeed ready for such a union and whether we were being a proper Bride through our behaviors and actions here in the present time.

I agree that self presumption should not be quickly claimed. Nevertheless, these aspects of His people's inward readiness and preparation are usually neglected in favor of attention to outward things of prophecy.

Let me give an example. The prophet Daniel calculated the time of the return from Babylonian captivity to the Promised Land by studying Jeremiah. But he gave himself to prayer and petitioning for that event. He did not simply consider the calender date. At the risk of his life he dedicated himself to consecration to God praying, petitioning, requesting from God that He be faithful to His promise.

This insistence on his inward harmony with God's prophecy caused his persecution and a trip to the lion's den. Think about it.

Why didn't [edited] Daniel simply stop praying and WAIT with attentive eyes to outward things like counting calender years and days? This should be a model to Christians. Inwardly Daniel aligned himself with God's promises.

I am sure that his PRAYERS and inward harmony with God's will prepared the way and even the impetus for God to come through and fulfill His promises.

Even though Daniel himself did not go back to the land, his consecration and prayers and living unto God laid the tracks for others to go back. It should be the same with the second coming of Christ.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


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jaywill
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Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 606 of 1581 (837866)
08-10-2018 8:22 AM


While it is easy to say 'The Bride Ain't Ready" this should not be an excuse for the Bride not to MAKE herself ready as it says.

Do you recall God telling the people "You say NOW is not the time to rebuild the house of the Lord." ?

Man often says "Now is not the time". God wants some to say "We seize the time now."

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


  
Faith
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From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 607 of 1581 (837867)
08-10-2018 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 605 by jaywill
08-10-2018 8:16 AM


Re: The Bride Ain't Ready
I'm not sure about the idea of "laying tracks" for God to fulfill prophecy although I would expect Him to raise up godly men like Daniel to point the way through them. Daniel's faithfulness, however, is certainly the reason for God's giving him the prophecies as He did, and so much understanding of them.
e
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jaywill
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From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 608 of 1581 (837868)
08-10-2018 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 604 by Faith
08-10-2018 8:07 AM


If there is no pre-tribulation rapture of at least some of those watching and ready for His sudden presence, there will be no great tribulation. This is important to see.

The pre-tribulation rapture of some saints is the catalyst that causes the last three and one half year great tribulation to occur.

The problems in Scripture arrive when one ASSUMES that a pre-tribulation rapture must involve every single member of the church. If you read carefully it is conditional upon watching and readiness. Therefore it must be that some heed the warning and some do not.

Selective rapture of some of the church on the earth has to be a piece of the puzzle to realize. All may be taken. All do not have to be taken at one time.

This touches on just what I introduced into the discussion perhaps - INWARD readiness being a cause of the events of prophecy.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


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Faith
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Posts: 30162
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 609 of 1581 (837870)
08-10-2018 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 608 by jaywill
08-10-2018 8:30 AM


Yes, I certainly agree about the readiness factor, and would very much like to hear your thoughts about that. Since I began being drawn to this notion I've been more and more eager for it to be true, and soon.

Also the necessity of the Rapture or there will be no tribulation sounds right too, though I'm pretty vague about it. I haven't seen any convincing evidence for your "mid-trib" position yet though. Well, mid-seventieth week position.

There will certainly be a lot of people who call themselves Christian who will not go in the Rapture, so that would mean a lot of people coming to faith during the tribulation.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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jaywill
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Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 610 of 1581 (837871)
08-10-2018 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 609 by Faith
08-10-2018 8:36 AM


There is spiritual warfare between the saints of Christ and His enemy Satan.
Our fight is not against flesh and blood but against spiritual forces.

The readiness of some of the saints in the last days is a strategic defeat to the enemy Satan. Their sudden snatching away to the third heavens is simultaneously an expulsion and further limiting of Satan's sphere of influence and activity.

The saints raptured causes ground to be lost by Satan in the heavenly spheres where he accuses God's people day and night before God's throne. Some go UP and Satan is driven DOWN.

He loses ground as a result of the inward maturity and readiness of some overcoming saints. Their rapture as a reward is simultaneously Satan's expulsion from realms he previously roamed in. And it forces the sphere of his opposition to Christ to become more narrow.This encreases his anger. And this encreased anger is an element that causes the great triublation.

Please, read carefully and prayerfully the 12th chapter of Revelation. And ask WHY does the Devil come down to earth with great wrath. And why does he now realize that he has only a little time.

This thread is very active. So I will not always be able to write throughout the whole day. I may have to suspend and return.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


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 Message 611 by Faith, posted 08-10-2018 9:01 AM jaywill has responded
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Faith
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Posts: 30162
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 611 of 1581 (837873)
08-10-2018 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 610 by jaywill
08-10-2018 8:51 AM


Interesting. I will read Revelation 12 more carefully today.

I would like to know your understanding of what readiness means.


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Faith
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Posts: 30162
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 612 of 1581 (837875)
08-10-2018 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 611 by Faith
08-10-2018 9:01 AM


Ah, the "time, times and half a time" in Revelation 12
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jaywill
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Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 613 of 1581 (837906)
08-10-2018 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 610 by jaywill
08-10-2018 8:51 AM


I will give attention to this this evening.
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Dredge
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Posts: 715
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 614 of 1581 (837913)
08-10-2018 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by PaulK
06-24-2018 4:46 PM


Jesus implied that a sign of his coming will be the control of Jerusalem being handed back to the Jews. This happened in 1967.

"So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place? ...
But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near ...
And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." - Luke 21:7-24 (see Roman 11:25)

Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in 70AD and was in the hands of the Gentiles until it was recaptured by Israel the Six Day War in 1967.


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Faith
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Posts: 30162
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 615 of 1581 (837915)
08-10-2018 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 614 by Dredge
08-10-2018 7:17 PM


When are the times of the Gentiles over?
I'd recently begun seeing "the times of the Gentiles" as embracing the whole Christian era, which seems to be an interruption of Daniel's prophecy of the Seventy Weeks, which we discussed on a previous thread. In other words, it would end when the Christian era ends, which I've been coming to see as the pre-tribulation Rapture, after which the last week of Daniel's prophecy begins and the Great Tribulation ensues, while it is now again the Jews who are the dominant focus of God's activities in the world.

That's how I'd come to think of it, rather loosely, recently. Now jaywill has entered the discussion with the familiar other idea that the tribulation begins in the middle of the seventieth week. I expect there will be some discussion of this when he returns this evening. Not sure I'll be able to be here then.

Here's a commentary on the "times of the Gentiles" hat is somewhat similar to what i'd been coming to think:

After thousands of years of exile, a Jewish state was miraculously established in Israel again in 1948. It was not until 1968 that Israel controlled Jerusalem, but still today they yield the rule and the administration of the most central piece of Jerusalem – the Temple Mount – to Gentile rule (the Palestinian Authority). It can be argued that prophetically speaking, Jerusalem is still trampled by Gentiles.

b. Until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled: When these times of the Gentiles are completed, the author believes that the remaining seven-year period appointed to the Jewish people in Daniel 9 begins. The calamities described in following verses will come in this period.

It is the Rapture idea I'm most focused on at the moment, which may very well be THE end of the "times of the Gentiles" when the Jews again become God's agents on the earth.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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