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Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
jaywill
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Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 616 of 1581 (837924)
08-11-2018 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 611 by Faith
08-10-2018 9:01 AM


quote:
I would like to know your understanding of what readiness means.

Revelation 19 says the righteousnesses of the saints make her ready. That is not a typo. RighteounessES means the righteous deeds from righteous living. This living out the indwelling Christ in terms of righteous deeds - righteousnessES prepare the wife for the wedding.

Let us rejoice and exalt, and let us give glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.

And it was given to her that she should be clothed in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteousnesses of the saints. (Rev. 19:7,8)

The righteous deeds issuing out of walking with Christ becomes her very wedding garment of fine linen, bright and clean . The plural RIGHTEOUSNESS-ES are her wedding garments as well as her fighting garment in the spiritual warfare. For her fighting armor is the same as her wedding garment.

And the armies which are in heaven followed Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean." (Rev. 19:14)

A remnant of saints will constitute the wife for the wedding.
And the same remnant of saints will constitute the fighting army to accompany Christ to Armageddon. In both cases the righteous living, the righteous deeds stemming from walking in union with the living and indwelling Christ qualifies them for both the wedding and the battle.

This is a remnant of overcoming saints we can call "overcomers". They simply rise to the level of normality in enjoying grace. They are not super spiritual. They are normal and overcoming via the grace of Christ which they do not nullify.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 611 by Faith, posted 08-10-2018 9:01 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 619 by Faith, posted 08-11-2018 1:36 AM jaywill has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 1276
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 617 of 1581 (837925)
08-11-2018 12:48 AM


I always think of the "Rapture" as some mass suicide or mass killing.
The idea of a large group of people dropping dead and their spirit ascending to heaven while other people remain alive just sounds so Heavens Gate-ish.

That's just me.


Replies to this message:
 Message 618 by Faith, posted 08-11-2018 1:34 AM LamarkNewAge has responded
 Message 620 by jaywill, posted 08-11-2018 3:19 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30031
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 618 of 1581 (837928)
08-11-2018 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 617 by LamarkNewAge
08-11-2018 12:48 AM


Re: I always think of the "Rapture" as some mass suicide or mass killing.
What if they don't drop dead but simply rise out of sight into the sky? (I don't think you'll be finding any corpses lying around).

I'm sure there will be all sorts of theories designed to explain it away though, since there will be quite a few "Christians" in name only left on the earth who will refuse to believe that the hated "fundamentalists" could be God's chosen.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 617 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-11-2018 12:48 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 30031
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 619 of 1581 (837929)
08-11-2018 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 616 by jaywill
08-11-2018 12:00 AM


Readiness
Good straightforward point. What is the oil in the lamps of the five virgins who are ready to "go out to meet Him?" The Holy Spirit is what I've usually heard.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 616 by jaywill, posted 08-11-2018 12:00 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
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jaywill
Member
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 620 of 1581 (837933)
08-11-2018 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 617 by LamarkNewAge
08-11-2018 12:48 AM


Re: I always think of the "Rapture" as some mass suicide or mass killing.
Nothing I have written remotely resembles that.
You should tend to the actual words written in Scripture very carefully.

And you have the Old Testament example of the patriarch Enoch. He walked with God and was not found at all because God took him. Genesis 5:22-24. All the others lived so long and then it records that they died. Enoch is an exception.

In reading about a Bible subject one must firstly master the facts as they are written. Then we can go on to interpretations - as to which is better. You have to master the facts of the details as they are expressed.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 617 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-11-2018 12:48 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 624 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-11-2018 11:02 AM jaywill has not yet responded
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jaywill
Member
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 621 of 1581 (837934)
08-11-2018 3:34 AM
Reply to: Message 619 by Faith
08-11-2018 1:36 AM


Re: Readiness
quote:
Good straightforward point. What is the oil in the lamps of the five virgins who are ready to "go out to meet Him?" The Holy Spirit is what I've usually heard.

The difference between the wise virgins and the foolish virgins is that the wise had extra oil. They had not only oil in their lamps but also stored in their vessels along with their lamps. This is extra oil.

The lamp signifies the spirit of man. All regenerated people possess the Holy Spirit imparted into their human spirit. If we are wise we will go on to allow the Holy Spirit to spread out into our soul. The soul is distinct from the human spirit. And the soul is the vessel. Transformation calls for the Holy Spirit moving out from the center of our being to our surrounding soul in sanctification.

This is the WISE preparation for Christ's return - to allow the extra portion of the Holy Spirit to so saturate our soul as the seat of our personality. This requires a price paid. But the initial filling of the human spirit with the Holy Spirit is a gift.

Five foolish and five wise does not mean half are foolish and half are wise. Rather five is a number signifying responsibility. So it is each Christian's own responsibility as to whether they will be wise or foolish.

The foolish virgins do not perish eternally. But they are late for the celebration.
They end up paying the same price for the extra oil in the vessel anyway. But they do so LATE.

The spirit of man is the lamp of the Lord. (Proverbs 20:27)
The soul of man is the earthen vessel which requires renewing and saturation with the Holy Spirit in sanctification and transformation ONCE the initial receiving of the Holy Spirit in regeneration is obtained. (Second Corinthians 4:7)

It is foolish to only receive the new birth and neglect sanctification.
It is wise to go on to tend to sanctification after one has been born again.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 619 by Faith, posted 08-11-2018 1:36 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 622 by Faith, posted 08-11-2018 7:56 AM jaywill has responded
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Faith
Member
Posts: 30031
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 622 of 1581 (837940)
08-11-2018 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 621 by jaywill
08-11-2018 3:34 AM


Re: Readiness
That's a good framework for studying it I think, but the foolish virgins had the door shut in their face so there isn't much to support the idea that they would later join the wise virgins.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 621 by jaywill, posted 08-11-2018 3:34 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 636 by jaywill, posted 08-12-2018 7:44 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30031
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 623 of 1581 (837946)
08-11-2018 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 621 by jaywill
08-11-2018 3:34 AM


Re: Readiness
Sorry if I've been getting you off course. When you joined the thread you seemed to have a definite topic you wanted to pursue, so whatever it was I'd like to see it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 621 by jaywill, posted 08-11-2018 3:34 AM jaywill has not yet responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1276
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 624 of 1581 (837954)
08-11-2018 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 620 by jaywill
08-11-2018 3:19 AM


Re: I always think of the "Rapture" as some mass suicide or mass killing.
quote:

And you have the Old Testament example of the patriarch Enoch. He walked with God and was not found at all because God took him. Genesis 5:22-24. All the others lived so long and then it records that they died. Enoch is an exception.

In reading about a Bible subject one must firstly master the facts as they are written. Then we can go on to interpretations - as to which is better. You have to master the facts of the details as they are expressed.


Part of the problem is the fact that the Bible contradicts itself.

1 Corinthians 15 indicates a spiritual (but not bodily) rising.

Matthew 27:51-53 said this happened to certain(?) dead folks after Jesus Christ died:

quote:

Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Matthew 27:51-53 might refer to flesh and blood.

(what do you think?)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 says:

quote:

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”


I would assume this is a spiritual rising, since Paul wrote it.

Luke said this:

quote:

Luke 16:19-31

19 There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’


Saul spoke to the spirit of Samuel while his body was in the ground.

(I admit that I am taking many different parts of the Christian Bible, and combining them all, so you can call me out for jumbling together a bunch of unrelated parts)

The Rapture is difficult to give an analysis of, because it could very well be just the teaching of Paul (and much might be read into what Paul said anyway).

Luke dates decades after Paul.

At least the same Paul who wrote I Thessalonians also wrote I and II Corinthians.

Paul went to paradise in the third heaven.

The Rapture is a death while the world goes on?

How does that relate to the 1000 year kingdom in Revelation 20?

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 620 by jaywill, posted 08-11-2018 3:19 AM jaywill has not yet responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1276
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 625 of 1581 (837960)
08-11-2018 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 618 by Faith
08-11-2018 1:34 AM


How do you interpret 4 Ezra (II Esdras)? (in most Bibles worldwide)
How does this part of sacred scripture relate to the end times prophecy and the rapture?

I have a link to the entire text of 4 Ezra in the King James Bible (the real King James had it, but most King James Bibles have been changed).

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/2-Esdras-Chapter-1/

Chapter 2

quote:

16
And those that be dead will I raise up again from their places, and bring them out of the graves: for I have known my name in Israel.

....
31
Remember thy children that sleep, for I shall bring them out of the sides of the earth, and shew mercy unto them: for I am merciful, saith the Lord Almighty.

....
Arise up and stand, behold the number of those that be sealed in the feast of the Lord;

39 Which are departed from the shadow of the world, and have received glorious garments of the Lord.

40 Take thy number, O Sion, and shut up those of thine that are clothed in white, which have fulfilled the law of the Lord.

41 The number of thy children, whom thou longedst for, is fulfilled: beseech the power of the Lord, that thy people, which have been called from the beginning, may be hallowed.

42 I Esdras saw upon the mount Sion a great people, whom I could not number, and they all praised the Lord with songs.

43 And in the midst of them there was a young man of a high stature, taller than all the rest, and upon every one of their heads he set crowns, and was more exalted; which I marvelled at greatly.

44 So I asked the angel, and said, Sir, what are these?

45 He answered and said unto me, These be they that have put off the mortal clothing, and put on the immortal, and have confessed the name of God: now are they crowned, and receive palms.

46 Then said I unto the angel, What young person is it that crowneth them, and giveth them palms in their hands?

47 So he answered and said unto me, It is the Son of God, whom they have confessed in the world. Then began I greatly to commend them that stood so stiffly for the name of the Lord.

48 Then the angel said unto me, Go thy way, and tell my people what manner of things, and how great wonders of the Lord thy God, thou hast seen.


Chapter

[quote]

Chapter 6.

quote:

18 And it said, "Behold, the days are coming, and it shall be that when I draw near to visit the inhabitants of the earth,
[19] and when I require from the doers of iniquity the penalty of their iniquity, and when the humiliation of Zion is complete,
[20] and when the seal is placed upon the age which is about to pass away, then I will show these signs: the books shall be opened before the firmament, and all shall see it together.
[21] Infants a year old shall speak with their voices, and women with child shall give birth to premature children at three and four months, and these shall live and dance.
[22] Sown places shall suddenly appear unsown, and full storehouses shall suddenly be found to be empty;
[23] and the trumpet shall sound aloud, and when all hear it, they shall suddenly be terrified.
[24] At that time friends shall make war on friends like enemies, and the earth and those who inhabit it shall be terrified, and the springs of the fountains shall stand still, so that for three hours they shall not flow.
[25]
"And it shall be that whoever remains after all that I have foretold to you shall himself be saved and shall see my salvation and the end of my world.

[26] And they shall see the men who were taken up, who from their birth have not tasted death; and the heart of the earth's inhabitants shall be changed and converted to a different spirit.


Chapter 6 cont

quote:

29 After these years shall my son Christ die, and all men that have life.

30 And the world shall be turned into the old silence seven days, like as in the former judgments: so that no man shall remain.

31 And after seven days the world, that yet awaketh not, shall be raised up, and that shall die that is corrupt

32 And the earth shall restore those that are asleep in her, and so shall the dust those that dwell in silence, and the secret places shall deliver those souls that were committed unto them.

33 And the most High shall appear upon the seat of judgment, and misery shall pass away, and the long suffering shall have an end:


Se there verses from chapter 8

quote:

5 For not of your own will did you come into the world, and against your will you depart, for you have been given only a short time to live.

....

19 Therefore hear my voice, and understand my words, and I will speak before thee."
The beginning of the words of Ezra's prayer, before he was taken up. He said:


Then this.

16:74

quote:

"Hear, my elect," says the Lord. "Behold, the days of tribulation are at hand, and I will deliver you from them.



This message is a reply to:
 Message 618 by Faith, posted 08-11-2018 1:34 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1276
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 626 of 1581 (837961)
08-11-2018 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 620 by jaywill
08-11-2018 3:19 AM


Re: I always think of the "Rapture" as some mass suicide or mass killing.
Jaywill said:
quote:

You should tend to the actual words written in Scripture very carefully.
And you have the Old Testament example of the patriarch Enoch. He walked with God and was not found at all because God took him. Genesis 5:22-24. All the others lived so long and then it records that they died. Enoch is an exception.

In reading about a Bible subject one must firstly master the facts as they are written. Then we can go on to interpretations - as to which is better. You have to master the facts of the details as they are expressed.


This was in the original King James until it was removed by later men.

quote:

4 Ezra chapter 14
[1]
On the third day, while I was sitting under an oak, behold, a voice came out of a bush opposite me and said, "Ezra, Ezra."

[2] And I said, "Here I am, Lord," and I rose to my feet.
[3] Then he said to me, "I revealed myself in a bush and spoke to Moses, when my people were in bondage in Egypt;
[4] and I sent him and led my people out of Egypt; and I led him up on Mount Sinai, where I kept him with me many days;
[5] and I told him many wondrous things, and showed him the secrets of the times and declared to him the end of the times. Then I commanded him, saying,
[6] `These words you shall publish openly, and these you shall keep secret.'
[7] And now I say to you;
[8] Lay up in your heart the signs that I have shown you, the dreams that you have seen, and the interpretations that you have heard;
[9] for you shall be taken up from among men, and henceforth you shall live with my Son and with those who are like you, until the times are ended.

....
Chapter 16

[74]
"Hear, my elect," says the Lord. "Behold, the days of tribulation are at hand, and I will deliver you from them.


Your interpretation?

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 620 by jaywill, posted 08-11-2018 3:19 AM jaywill has not yet responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1276
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 627 of 1581 (837967)
08-11-2018 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 602 by jaywill
08-10-2018 7:14 AM


The bride in the original King James Bible.
Jaywill said:

quote:

As far as I could tell most of this discussion is about outward indications and evidences about Christ's second coming. If I entered the discussion I would put much more emphasis on spiritual catalysts leading to and causing Christ's second coming.
In Revelation 19, for example, its says that the bride has made herself ready. This is the wooing and compelling impetus for a longing Christ to come again for at least a representative remnant who prepare themselves to be in total union of love with Him.

Am I right that that aspect has been less developed here ?


Ho do you place Revelation 19 in with 1 Corinthians 15 * 1 Thessalonians 4?

How do you place them all in relation to Revelation 20?

How does the tribulation relate to the wedding feast?

How do they all relate to the 1000 years in Revelation 20?

Here is chapter 7 of the King James text of 4 Ezra.

quote:

26 Behold, the time shall come, that these tokens which I have told thee shall come to pass, and the bride shall appear, and she coming forth shall be seen, that now is withdrawn from the earth.

27 And whosoever is delivered from the foresaid evils shall see my wonders.

28 For my son Jesus shall be revealed with those that be with him, and they that remain shall rejoice within four hundred years.

29 After these years shall my son Christ die, and all men that have life.

30 And the world shall be turned into the old silence seven days, like as in the former judgments: so that no man shall remain.

31 And after seven days the world, that yet awaketh not, shall be raised up, and that shall die that is corrupt

32 And the earth shall restore those that are asleep in her, and so shall the dust those that dwell in silence, and the secret places shall deliver those souls that were committed unto them.

33 And the most High shall appear upon the seat of judgment, and misery shall pass away, and the long suffering shall have an end:


400 years are mentioned here.

I still have trouble seeing where the immortality begins.

quote:

42 He answered me, and said, This present life is not the end where much glory doth abide; therefore have they prayed for the weak.

43 But the day of doom shall be the end of this time, and the beginning of the immortality for to come, wherein corruption is past,

44 Intemperance is at an end, infidelity is cut off, righteousness is grown, and truth is sprung up.

45 Then shall no man be able to save him that is destroyed, nor to oppress him that hath gotten the victory.

46 I answered then and said, This is my first and last saying, that it had been better not to have given the earth unto Adam: or else, when it was given him, to have restrained him from sinning.

47 For what profit is it for men now in this present time to live in heaviness, and after death to look for punishment?


Is it for different times for different people?

Is there a description in Revelation 19 of a wedding feast for those who died in a 1 Thessalonians 4 type of event (the rapture?)?

Does the tribulation happen as Revelation 19 happens?

Paul may or may not have had an idea of one group - Christians - dropping dead (while non Christians remained on the Earth) at the return described in 1 Thessalonians, but do you feel that the later authors of Revelation and 4 Ezra had this in mind?

quote:

19 Therefore hear my voice, and understand my words, and I shall speak before thee. This is the beginning of the words of Esdras, before he was taken up: and I said,

....

34 For what is man, that thou shouldest take displeasure at him? or what is a corruptible generation, that thou shouldest be so bitter toward it?

35 For in truth them is no man among them that be born, but he hath dealt wickedly; and among the faithful there is none which hath not done amiss.

36 For in this, O Lord, thy righteousness and thy goodness shall be declared, if thou be merciful unto them which have not the confidence of good works.

....

inheritance: for thou art merciful unto thy creature.

46 Then answered he me, and said, Things present are for the present, and things to cometh for such as be to come.

47 For thou comest far short that thou shouldest be able to love my creature more than I: but I have ofttimes drawn nigh unto thee, and unto it, but never to the unrighteous.

48 In this also thou art marvellous before the most High:

49 In that thou hast humbled thyself, as it becometh thee, and hast not judged thyself worthy to be much glorified among the righteous.

50 For many great miseries shall be done to them that in the latter time shall dwell in the world, because they have walked in great pride.

....

55 And therefore ask thou no more questions concerning the multitude of them that perish.

....

61

And therefore is my judgment now at hand.

62 These things have I not shewed unto all men, but unto thee, and a few like thee. Then answered I and said,

63 Behold, O Lord, now hast thou shewed me the multitude of the wonders, which thou wilt begin to do in the last times


Chapter 9

quote:

1 He answered me then, and said, Measure thou the time diligently in itself: and when thou seest part of the signs past, which I have told thee before,

2 Then shalt thou understand, that it is the very same time, wherein the Highest will begin to visit the world which he made.

3 Therefore when there shall be seen earthquakes and uproars of the people in the world:

4 Then shalt thou well understand, that the most High spake of those things from the days that were before thee, even from the beginning.

5 For like as all that is made in the world hath a beginning and an end, and the end is manifest:

6 Even so the times also of the Highest have plain beginnings in wonder and powerful works, and endings in effects and signs.

7 And every one that shall be saved, and shall be able to escape by his works, and by faith, whereby ye have believed,

8 Shall be preserved from the said perils, and shall see my salvation in my land, and within my borders: for I have sanctified them for me from the beginning.

9 Then shall they be in pitiful case, which now have abused my ways: and they that have cast them away despitefully shall dwell in torments.


Chapter 12 talks about some being left behind (Jews not deported is just a symbolic plot device and is part of a larger type?)

quote:

1 And it came to pass after seven days, I dreamed a dream by night:

....

14 Thou hast shewed thy servant these wonders from the beginning, and hast counted me worthy that thou shouldest receive my prayer:

15 Shew me now yet the interpretation of this dream.

16 For as I conceive in mine understanding, woe unto them that shall be left in those days and much more woe unto them that are not left behind!

17 For they that were not left were in heaviness.

18 Now understand I the things that are laid up in the latter days, which shall happen unto them, and to those that are left behind.

19 Therefore are they come into great perils and many necessities, like as these dreams declare.

20 Yet is it easier for him that is in danger to come into these things, than to pass away as a cloud out of the world, and not to see the things that happen in the last days. And he answered unto me, and said,

21 The interpretation of the vision shall I shew thee, and I will open unto thee the thing that thou hast required.

22 Whereas thou hast spoken of them that are left behind, this is the interpretation:

23 He that shall endure the peril in that time hath kept himself: they that be fallen into danger are such as have works, and faith toward the Almighty.

24 Know this therefore, that they which be left behind are more blessed than they that be dead.

25 This is the meaning of the vision: Whereas thou sawest a man coming up from the midst of the sea:

26 The same is he whom God the Highest hath kept a great season, which by his own self shall deliver his creature: and he shall order them that are left behind.

27 And whereas thou sawest, that out of his mouth there came as a blast of wind, and fire, and storm;

28 And that he held neither sword, nor any instrument of war, but that the rushing in of him destroyed the whole multitude that came to subdue him; this is the interpretation:

29 Behold, the days come, when the most High will begin to deliver them that are upon the earth.

30 And he shall come to the astonishment of them that dwell on the earth.

....

46 Then dwelt they there until the latter time; and now when they shall begin to come,

47 The Highest shall stay the springs of the stream again, that they may go through: therefore sawest thou the multitude with peace.

48 But those that be left behind of thy people are they that are found within my borders.

49 Now when he destroyeth the multitude of the nations that are gathered together, he shall defend his people that remain.

50 And then shall he shew them great wonders.


I wonder if the text that talks about the Israelites leaving (Jerusalem where the law isn't followed?) to follow the law, he is describing these tribes as Christians?

quote:

Then said I, O Lord that bearest rule, shew me this: Wherefore have I seen the man coming up from the midst of the sea?

52 And he said unto me, Like as thou canst neither seek out nor know the things that are in the deep of the sea: even so can no man upon earth see my Son, or those that be with him, but in the day time.

53 This is the interpretation of the dream which thou sawest, and whereby thou only art here lightened.

54 For thou hast forsaken thine own way, and applied thy diligence unto my law, and sought it.


I don't know.

But is this a description of Non-Christian Jews being "left behind" from the rapture?

They are described as more blessed than those who left.

Because they will be defended in the tribulation?

I have no idea if these views were even held in the late 1st century.

Chapter 13 talks about a death of the body (of Ezra)?

quote:

8 That thou lay up in thy heart the signs that I have shewed, and the dreams that thou hast seen, and the interpretations which thou hast heard:

9 For thou shalt be taken away from all, and from henceforth thou shalt remain with my Son, and with such as be like thee, until the times be ended.

....

Then answered I before thee, and said,

20 Behold, Lord, I will go, as thou hast commanded me, and reprove the people which are present: but they that shall be born afterward, who shall admonish them? thus the world is set in darkness, and they that dwell therein are without light.

21 For thy law is burnt, therefore no man knoweth the things that are done of thee, or the work that shall begin.

22 But if I have found grace before thee, send the Holy Ghost into me, and I shall write all that hath been done in the world since the beginning, which were written in thy law, that men may find thy path, and that they which will live in the latter days may live.


This site has discussion on the tribulation.

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/2-Esdras-Chapter-13/

Scholars date this book at around 100 A.D.

Chapter 13 seems to describe the deported Israelites as following the law?

quote:

40 Those are the ten tribes, which were carried away prisoners out of their own land in the time of Osea the king, whom Salmanasar the king of Assyria led away captive, and he carried them over the waters, and so came they into another land.

41 But they took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,

42 That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.


The Jews remained, but I wonder if this is a description of non-Christian Jews.

I ask again, can the tribes who left to follow the law possibly be Christians in this 100 AD book that is now sacred Christian scripture?

This was a Christian authored book.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 602 by jaywill, posted 08-10-2018 7:14 AM jaywill has not yet responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1276
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 628 of 1581 (837969)
08-11-2018 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 620 by jaywill
08-11-2018 3:19 AM


Re: I always think of the "Rapture" as some mass suicide or mass killing.
quote:

You should tend to the actual words written in Scripture very carefully.
And you have the Old Testament example of the patriarch Enoch. He walked with God and was not found at all because God took him. Genesis 5:22-24. All the others lived so long and then it records that they died. Enoch is an exception.

In reading about a Bible subject one must firstly master the facts as they are written. Then we can go on to interpretations - as to which is better. You have to master the facts of the details as they are expressed.


Does 4 Ezra 14:9 describe a rapture of the body (with soul) of Ezra or the death of the body and rapture of the soul?

quote:

The Survivors of Israel: A Reconsideration of the Theology of Pre-Christian Judaism
Mark Adam Elliot

p.465

That this passage refers to Ezra's being "taken up" would suggest that, like Enoch and Elijah, this ancient worthy was viewed as possessing a "continuing life".


This was a late 1st century AD Christian book (and it is in most Bible's today including the real King James).

quote:

The Ascension of the Messiah in Lukan Christology
By Arie W. Zwiep

p.74

Ezra's body being taken up to heaven this is implied by his close association with Enoch and Elijah, even though occasionally his departure is described in terms of death (7:15; 8:5; 10:34) (supra 36 n.2). That a chronological limit is set on Ezra's presence in heaven (usquequo finiantur tempora) suggests an expected return of Ezra in the end ("the decisive point in the eschatological sequence' (Stone), i.e. the inauguration of the Messianic Kingdom).


Ezra seemed be die (though he might not have been described as doing so in 4 Ezra) and he was "taken up" to be with Jesus until the end of the tribulation.

Just like people being raptured (in a mass death as described by rapture proponents) to be with Jesus during the last days on earth before the end.

Right?

quote:

9 For thou shalt be taken away from all, and from henceforth thou shalt remain with my Son, and with such as be like thee, until the times be ended.

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/2-Esdras-Chapter-14/


This was written by a contemporary of the author of Revelation.

The "taken up" is clearly written with the writings of Paul in mind.

This book did indeed have the Holy Spirit

This is from the same chapter 14

quote:

done of thee, or the work that shall begin.

22 But if I have found grace before thee, send the Holy Ghost into me, and I shall write all that hath been done in the world since the beginning, which were written in thy law, that men may find thy path, and that they which will live in the latter days may live.

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/2-Esdras-Chapter-14/


The Holy Spirit was part of the theology of this book, 4 Ezra (also known as 2 Esdras) that was preserved in sacred writ throughout European Christendom.

Even if one rejects The Bible as being 100% the "Word of God", you must acknowledge that this was a Christian book contemporary with the book of Revelation.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 620 by jaywill, posted 08-11-2018 3:19 AM jaywill has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 629 by Faith, posted 08-11-2018 3:23 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30031
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


(2)
Message 629 of 1581 (837970)
08-11-2018 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 628 by LamarkNewAge
08-11-2018 2:45 PM


Re: I always think of the "Rapture" as some mass suicide or mass killing.
Rarely does one see so much extravagantly meaningless verbiage in one place.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 628 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-11-2018 2:45 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 630 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-11-2018 3:44 PM Faith has responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1276
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 630 of 1581 (837974)
08-11-2018 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 629 by Faith
08-11-2018 3:23 PM


Do you care about 1st century Christian words/texts on the end times?
I will narrow down the quotations.

There are VERY PRECISE references to certain New Testament prophecy themes.

I will quote 4 Ezra from chapter 6, verses 26 and 32.

I want to know where you place this in relation to:

1 Thessalonians 4

1 Corinthians 15

Revelation 19

Revelation 20

quote:

4 Ezra 6:26

And they shall see the men who were taken up, who from their birth have not tasted death; and the heart of the earth's inhabitants shall be changed and converted to a different spirit.


quote:

4 Ezra 6:32

And the earth shall restore those that are asleep in her, and so shall the dust those that dwell in silence, and the secret places shall deliver those souls that were committed unto them.


I suppose you will never answer the question about whether 4 Ezra describes Ezra passing away (death) when he is "taken up" to be with Jesus before the end of the tribulation.

Faith, do you care about 1st century Christian texts and opinions, or modern man's commentary?

You will ignore the words or the former and slobber over the latter with undulating admiration and wonder.

QUESTION FOR FAITH.

What other early Christian text do you have that so clearly references the exact same issues and events as 1 Thessalonians 4, Revelation 19, Revelation 20, 1 Corinthians 15?

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 629 by Faith, posted 08-11-2018 3:23 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 631 by Faith, posted 08-11-2018 7:37 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
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