Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 80 (8863 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 09-18-2018 8:50 PM
193 online now:
dwise1 (1 member, 192 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: rldawnca
Upcoming Birthdays: AdminPhat
Post Volume:
Total: 838,657 Year: 13,480/29,783 Month: 926/1,576 Week: 138/303 Day: 29/53 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
4243
44
4546
...
93NextFF
Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
Faith
Member
Posts: 29527
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 646 of 1392 (838058)
08-13-2018 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 640 by jaywill
08-12-2018 7:44 PM


Re: Readiness
I really appreciate your remarks on spiritual life and hope they will inspire me to greater discipline. I'd rather keep the focus there than on possible disagreements about the scripture, but I'm going to take your view of the parable of the virgins as a reason to spend a lot more time in prayer and devotions. It's scary to think of missing the Rapture and having to be martyred in the Tribulation. I'm too old. But if that's what comes I'll need all the spiritual strength I can get, and there are so many people I care about that I don't want to have to go through that either maybe it would be helpful if I did stick around and go through it with them anyway.

I think it is very close. Do you?

Look forward to your view of Revelation 7.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 640 by jaywill, posted 08-12-2018 7:44 PM jaywill has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29527
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 647 of 1392 (838060)
08-13-2018 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 641 by LamarkNewAge
08-12-2018 8:14 PM


Re: Matthew 25 and 22 seem somewhat materialistic and worldly. But what do they demand?
LNA: The Gospel of Thomas is Gnostic, a heretical writing. Those are not the words of Jesus. If you care about what Jesus actually said, and I don't know if you do, I can recommend only the King James Bible, I the 1789 update. All the other Bibles we have these days are based on Greek texts that were at the very least altered by Gnostics in the first centuries. Yes this is controversial and this is just my opinion but it is based on quite a bit of study and it is given in case it might help pry you loose from your addiction to false teachings.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 641 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-12-2018 8:14 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 650 by Taq, posted 08-13-2018 4:08 PM Faith has responded

    
jaywill
Member
Posts: 4489
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 648 of 1392 (838068)
08-13-2018 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 644 by LamarkNewAge
08-13-2018 8:02 AM


Re: Jaywill just invoked the man-made I mean Sacred Canon.
Though this could merit a discussion, I'll just say that the sixty six books enumerated in my RcV (Recovery Version) will be for me the word of God.

Good enough for now. Some people who make a real issue about the canon of scripture are simply hunting for a rationale not to listen to anything.

I use the Recovery Version, Darby's New Translation, 1901 American Standard, and sometimes refer to Bible Hub to spot check over 18 to 20 other English translations to get a sense of how other English Bibles render a passage in question.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 644 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-13-2018 8:02 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 649 by Phat, posted 08-13-2018 3:47 PM jaywill has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11130
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 649 of 1392 (838069)
08-13-2018 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 648 by jaywill
08-13-2018 3:33 PM


Bibles For America
I received a recovery version from this organization known as The Local Church Movement started by Witness Lee and Watchman Nee. Though charged with being a cult of sorts, there is valid teaching emanating from these organizations. Do you have any connection with or commentary on the local church movement? I personally won't hold it against you if that's where your emphasis on Bible Study was instilled, for I realize that you never refer to anything but the Bible itself as your source of study and wisdom.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 648 by jaywill, posted 08-13-2018 3:33 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 652 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-13-2018 7:42 PM Phat has responded
 Message 653 by Faith, posted 08-13-2018 8:05 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 657 by jaywill, posted 08-13-2018 10:07 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 667 by jaywill, posted 08-14-2018 11:18 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7553
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 650 of 1392 (838070)
08-13-2018 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 647 by Faith
08-13-2018 10:08 AM


Re: Matthew 25 and 22 seem somewhat materialistic and worldly. But what do they demand?
Faith writes:

LNA: The Gospel of Thomas is Gnostic, a heretical writing. Those are not the words of Jesus. If you care about what Jesus actually said, and I don't know if you do, I can recommend only the King James Bible, I the 1789 update. All the other Bibles we have these days are based on Greek texts that were at the very least altered by Gnostics in the first centuries. Yes this is controversial and this is just my opinion but it is based on quite a bit of study and it is given in case it might help pry you loose from your addiction to false teachings.

Just out of curiosity, what is your opinion of the New King James Bible? It appears to use the same source texts as the KJV. It is essentially a translation of the KJV into modern english.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 647 by Faith, posted 08-13-2018 10:08 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 651 by Faith, posted 08-13-2018 7:39 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29527
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 651 of 1392 (838081)
08-13-2018 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 650 by Taq
08-13-2018 4:08 PM


Re: Matthew 25 and 22 seem somewhat materialistic and worldly. But what do they demand?
Just out of curiosity, what is your opinion of the New King James Bible? It appears to use the same source texts as the KJV. It is essentially a translation of the KJV into modern english.

I wish it were. I used it for many years and like the way it reads, but then found out that although it is supposedly based on the Greek Textus Receptus, which is what underlies the King James, they've changed thousands of words from the King James, not merely updated the language, and copied many readings from the other Bible Versions that are not based on the Textus Receptus. And I came to find the notes on most of the pages referring to readings from the "oldest" and supposedly superior Greek manuscripts, which are those that many have exposed to have been altered by early heretics, to be annoying and to undermine the authority of the scripture.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 650 by Taq, posted 08-13-2018 4:08 PM Taq has not yet responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1218
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 652 of 1392 (838082)
08-13-2018 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 649 by Phat
08-13-2018 3:47 PM


This particular Bible (you and jaywill) is critical of James, the brother of Jesus.
Does the Bible have study notes?

I was about to tell jaywill I might have had (around 10-15 years ago) a little New Testament from them.

Now that I saw your post, I am pretty sure it is the same thing.

I saw something once that caught my attention.

Does the text for Acts 15:20 (or roundabout) have study note saying that James was still captive to the law?

I kept the little New Testament just for that note.

(the note might have been around James 2 or Galatians 2 and of course Acts 21)

EDIT I can't find it online, and was about to give up, but now I see that my New Testament was the STUDY BIBLE. I get hammered by evangelists in New York (usually Puerto Rican protestants) and often have Bible's given to me. I kept this one for a while, but it was so small that I lost it.)

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 649 by Phat, posted 08-13-2018 3:47 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 661 by Phat, posted 08-14-2018 3:08 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29527
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 653 of 1392 (838083)
08-13-2018 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 649 by Phat
08-13-2018 3:47 PM


Re: Bibles For America
Watchman Nee is one of my favorite teachers. I was never attracted to Witness Lee and kept seeing criticism of him as heretical but when I did some checking I felt that wasn't fair, though I haven't gone deeply into the questions about him.

I just looked up the Recovery version and see that like most/all the other modern Bibles it is based on the Nestle-Aland Critical Text which incorporates the heretical Greek texts Sinaiticus and Vaticanus which were surreptitiously substituted for the traditional Textus Receptus by the committee that in 1881 issued the revision that now underlies all modern Bibles. I've had a blog on this subject for years I titled "The Great Bible Hoax of 1881" where I've noted some of the main issues involved.

There can also be problems with the English translation apart from the Greek texts and I don't know about that in the case of the Recovery version.

After becoming aware of the problems with the modern Bibles I had to conclude that the King James version is the only trustworthy English Bible we have whatever our problems with the language or whatever small improvements in the translation might be needed. Its underlying Greek texts are reliable unlike those of the other versions, and I have to think it a very important factor that the men who translated it were known for both their scholarship and their godly lives, some known for hours of prayer a day. There is no one of that caliber on any of the translating committees for the modern Bibles. If there had been, most likely the hoax would have been exposed a long time ago.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 649 by Phat, posted 08-13-2018 3:47 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 654 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-13-2018 9:02 PM Faith has responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1218
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 654 of 1392 (838095)
08-13-2018 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 653 by Faith
08-13-2018 8:05 PM


Luke 3:22 is an example of manuscripts. Isaiah 7:14 is translation issue.
Should "This day I have begotten you" be in the Luke 3:22 baptism story of Luke or not?

It is in the canonical (Roman Catholic authored) Letter to the Hebrews (albeit placed in the context of creation) and the Hebrew Psalms.

I think it was taken out but was in the oldest gospels.

SECOND ISSUE.

And what is your opinion of translators using the Greek Septuagint quotation (with the Greek word "virgin") a single word in the Isaiah 7:14 text (for which the entire Septuagint verse was used and embedded in the Greek Gospel of Matthew)?

Isn't it dishonest for Old Testament translators to claim to be quoting the Masorah for the Old Testament but then to smuggle in a Greek word?

I'm talking about the Old Testament.

The Jewish Christians were unanimous in asserting that the Hebrew said "young women" (As even you will admit that it did).

And that is just the Old Testament issue.

(there is also the thorny issue of there being a Hebrew Gospel of Matthew that Jewish Christians used and even Jerome said it was the original)

Here is the earliest mention or the Ebionites (around 180-190 AD).

http://www.mesacc.edu/...81/handouts/irenaeus-ebionites.html

Irenaeus said:

quote:

Adversus Haereses (Book I, Chapter 26)

Those who are called Ebionites agree that the world was made by God; but their opinions with respect to the Lord are similar to those of Cerinthus and Carpocrates. They use the Gospel according to Matthew only, and repudiate the Apostle Paul, maintaining that he was an apostate from the law. As to the prophetical writings, they endeavour to expound them in a somewhat singular manner: they practise circumcision, persevere in the observance of those customs which are enjoined by the law, and are so Judaic in their style of life, that they even adore Jerusalem as if it were the house of God.

Adversus Haereses (Book III, Chapter 21)

God, then, was made man, and the Lord did Himself save us, giving us the token of the Virgin. But not as some allege, among those now presuming to expound the Scripture, [thus:] " BEHOND, A YOUNG WOMAN SHALL CONCEIVE, AND BRING FORTH A SON," Isaiah 7:14 as Theodotion the Ephesian has interpreted, and Aquila of Pontus, both Jewish proselytes. The Ebionites, following these, assert that He was begotten by Joseph; thus destroying, as far as in them lies, such a marvellous dispensation of God, and setting aside the testimony of the prophets which proceeded from God.

Adversus Haereses (Book V, Chapter 1)

Vain also are the Ebionites, who do not receive by faith into their soul the union of God and man, but who remain in the old leaven of [the natural] birth, and who do not choose to understand that the Holy Ghost came upon Mary, and the power of the Most High did overshadow her.


The RSV translators used the accurate translation (young woman) of the Masorah for the Old Testament Bible section (leaving the accurate Greek translation "virgin" for Matthew), for the first translation, but the public demanded the O.T. text be changed to "virgin".

1 step forward, 1 back.

Justine Martyr had a dialogue with Tyrpho the Jew (an actual Jew and not a Jewish Christian), and the issue of the YOUNG WOMAN (in the Hebrew scriptures) came up multiple times.

And Justin quoted Luke 3:22 in this exchange.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/...dialoguetrypho.html

quote:

CHAPTER LXXXVII -- TRYPHO MAINTAINS IN OBJECTION THESE WORDS: "AND SHALL REST ON HIM," ETC. THEY ARE EXPLAINED BY JUSTIN

Hereupon Trypho, after I had spoken these words, said,

"Do not now suppose that I am endeavouring, by asking what I do ask, to overturn the statements you have made; but I wish to receive information respecting those very points about which I now inquire. Tell me, then, how, when the Scripture asserts by Isaiah, 'There shall come forth a rod from the root of Jesse; and a flower shall grow up from the root of Jesse; and the Spirit of God shall rest upon Him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and piety: and the spirit of the fear of the Lord shall fill Him:' (now you admitted to me," continued he, "that this referred to Christ, and you maintain Him to be pre-existent God, and having become incarnate by God's will, to be born man by the Virgin how He can be demonstrated to have been pre-existent, who is filled with the powers of the Holy Ghost, which the Scripture by Isaiah enumerates, as if He were in lack of them?"


I will combine the rest of chapter 87 and all of 88 (I am changing the format slightly plus adding caps)

Justin replied:

quote:

Then I replied, "You have inquired most discreetly and most prudently, for truly there does seem to be a difficulty; but listen to what I say, that you may perceive the reason of this also. The Scripture says that these enumerated powers of the Spirit have come on Him, not because He stood in need of them, but because they would rest in Him, i.e., would find their accomplishment in Him, so that there would be no more prophets in your nation after the ancient custom: and this fact you plainly perceive. For after Him no prophet has arisen among you. Now, that [you may know that] your prophets, each receiving some one or two powers from God, did and spoke the things which we have learned from the Scriptures, attend to the following remarks of mine. Solomon possessed the spirit of wisdom, Daniel that of understanding and counsel, Moses that of might and piety, Elijah that of fear, and Isaiah that of knowledge; and so with the others: each possessed one power, or one joined alternately with another; also Jeremiah, and the twelve [prophets], and David, and, in short, the rest who existed amongst you. Accordingly He rested, i.e., ceased, when He came, after whom, in the times of this dispensation wrought out by Him amongst men, it was requisite that such gifts should cease from you; and having received their rest in Him, should again, as had been predicted, become gifts which, from the grace of His Spirit's power, He imparts to those who believe in Him, according as He deems each man worthy thereof. I have already said, and do again say, that it had been prophesied that this would be done by Him after His ascension to heaven. It is accordingly said, 'He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, He gave gifts unto the sons of men.' And again, in another prophecy it is said: 'And it shall come to pass after this, I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh, and on My servants, and on My handmaids, and they shall prophesy.'

CHAPTER LXXXVIII -- CHRIST HAS NOT RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT ON ACCOUNT OF POVERTY.

"Now, it is possible to see amongst us women and men who possess gifts of the Spirit of God; so that it was prophesied that the powers enumerated by Isaiah would come upon Him, not because He needed power, but because these would not continue after Him. And let this be a proof to you, namely, what I told you was done by the Magi from Arabia, who as soon as the Child was born came to worship Him, for even at His birth He was in possession of His power; and as He grew up like all other men, by using the fitting means, He assigned its own [requirements] to each development, and was sustained by all kinds of nourishment, and waited for thirty years, more or less, until John appeared before Him as the herald of His approach, and preceded Him in the way of baptism, as I have already shown. And then, when Jesus had gone to the river Jordan, where John was baptizing, and when He had stepped into the water, a fire was kindled in the Jordan; and when He came out of the water, the Holy Ghost lighted on Him like a dove, the apostles of this very Christ of ours wrote. Now, we know that he did not go to the river because He stood in need of baptism, or of the descent of the Spirit like a dove; even as He submitted to be born and to be crucified, not because He needed such things, but because of the human race, which from Adam had fallen under the power of death and the guile of the serpent, and each one of which had committed personal transgression. For God, wishing both angels and men, who were endowed with freewill, and at their own disposal, to do whatever He had strengthened each to do, made them so, that if they chose the things acceptable to Himself, He would keep them free from death and from punishment; but that if they did evil, He would punish each as He sees fit. For it was not His entrance into Jerusalem sitting on an ass, which we have showed was prophesied, that empowered Him to be Christ, but it furnished men with a proof that He is the Christ; just as it was necessary in the time of John that men have proof, that they might know who is Christ. For when John remained by the Jordan, and preached the baptism of repentance, wearing only a leathern girdle and a vesture made of camels' hair, eating nothing but locusts and wild honey, men supposed him to be Christ; but he cried to them, 'I am not the Christ, but the voice of one crying; for He that is stronger than I shall come, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear.' And when Jesus came to the Jordan, He was considered to be the son of Joseph the carpenter; and He appeared without comeliness, as the Scriptures declared; and He was deemed a carpenter (for He was in the habit of working as a carpenter when among men, making ploughs and yokes; by which He taught the symbols of righteousness and an active life); but then the Holy Ghost, and for man's sake, as I formerly stated, lighted on Him in the form of a dove, and there came at the same instant from the heavens a voice, which was uttered also by David when he spoke, personating Christ, what the Father would say to Him: 'THOU ART MY SON: THIS DAY HAVE I BEGOTTEN THEE;' [the Father] saying that His generation would take place for men, at the time when they would become acquainted with Him: 'Thou art My Son; this day have I begotten thee.' "


Luke 3:22 (the Hebrew Matthew used by Ebionites also hade this type of Baptism)was quoted in 140(or 150 or 160 or whenever Justin wrote this)to say "this day have I begotten thee".

But no modern translation uses this in its translation, despite the textual witness evidence

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 653 by Faith, posted 08-13-2018 8:05 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 655 by Faith, posted 08-13-2018 9:08 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29527
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 655 of 1392 (838096)
08-13-2018 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 654 by LamarkNewAge
08-13-2018 9:02 PM


Re: Luke 3:22 is an example of manuscripts. Isaiah 7:14 is translation issue.
Would it be possible for you to take, say, one simple point that interests you, and present it in, say, one simple paragraph, stating why it interests you? Because all you are doing is multiplying words without purpose as far as I can see.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 654 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-13-2018 9:02 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 656 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-13-2018 9:16 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1218
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 656 of 1392 (838097)
08-13-2018 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 655 by Faith
08-13-2018 9:08 PM


Re: Luke 3:22 is an example of manuscripts. Isaiah 7:14 is translation issue.
You said there are 2 issues when it comes to translations:

The actual original language texts used

(and/or)

The translation itself.

Correct?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 655 by Faith, posted 08-13-2018 9:08 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
jaywill
Member
Posts: 4489
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 657 of 1392 (838100)
08-13-2018 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 649 by Phat
08-13-2018 3:47 PM


Re: Bibles For America
I have meet with churches according to localities since 1974. Those outside look at this move of the Lord and need to call it something. Local Church Movement may be a term that some well or ill meaning observer passed on to you.

Christianity pushed Watchman Nee's books on personal spirituality but opposed or ignored his books on church life according to one church for one city.

Witness Lee was a co-worker of Nee who was still free to travel and carry Nee's message after Nee had been imprisoned by the Communist in Mainland China.

Critics have attempted to drive a wedge between the two men's ministries. But I can assure you that the imagined or accused descrepencies are artificial.

You seemed to at least in part had some realization of the erroneous criticisms of Witness Lee.

IF ... you have a Recovery Version, it would be excellent for you to list a dozen verses related to the subject here and look up the footnotes in the RcV to see what they say.

The apologetic arm of LSM (Living Stream Ministry Publishers) for the messages of Nee and Lee can be researched at -

www.contendingforthefaith.org

I definitely believe that it is a move of the Holy Spirit to recover the local ground of the practical church life - one city - one church. It has been the god ordained remedy for division and denominationalism that has convinced me that these two brothers Watchman Nee and Witness Lee had something genuine from the throne of the God. It makes some sense that God had to go to a "virgin" land like China where Christianity had not so entrenched itself in traditions, in order for God to open up and end/time channel for recovery of the church life.

I have as always checked out all things with the Bible and been both supplied with grace and life and truth from the ministry from the local churches.

This is a brief word. Next I probably will move closer to what you were concerned with - preparation for His sudden snatching away of some overcoming saints.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 649 by Phat, posted 08-13-2018 3:47 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 658 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-13-2018 10:26 PM jaywill has not yet responded
 Message 660 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-13-2018 11:00 PM jaywill has not yet responded
 Message 662 by Faith, posted 08-14-2018 4:46 AM jaywill has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1218
Joined: 12-22-2015


(1)
Message 658 of 1392 (838102)
08-13-2018 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 657 by jaywill
08-13-2018 10:07 PM


''
''

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 657 by jaywill, posted 08-13-2018 10:07 PM jaywill has not yet responded

    
jaywill
Member
Posts: 4489
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 659 of 1392 (838103)
08-13-2018 10:56 PM


The new covenant ministry is to impart a living Person Christ into people. He is a seed that we must water and tend to. God causes the growth. And rapture is something of a culmination of ripeness, readiness resulting from this GROWTH.

Here Paul says the normal church is God's FARM and God's building:

For we are God's fellow workers, you are God's cultivated land [or farm], God's building. (1 Cor. 3:9)

The various workers and apostles PLANTED and WATERED this growing life of Christ on God's FARM.

I planted. Apollos watered, but God caused the growth. (v.6)

Concerning Rapture notice that it is a culmination of RIPENESS of the "crop" in God's field. When the crop reaches growth and building up a HARVEST is enacted by God.

And He said, So is the kingdom of God: as if a man cast seed on the earth.

And sleeps and rises night and day, and the seed sprouts amd ;engthenes - how, he does not know.

The earth bears fruit by itself:
first a blade,
then an ear,
then full grain in the ear.

But when the fruit is ripe, immediately he sends forth the sickle, because the harvest has come. (Mark 4:26-29)

So we can see from First Corinthians that the normal church experience should be of planting and watering Christ in men. And GOD causes the growth of the plants.

And from Mark that RIPENESS of the growing plants must one day result in HARVEST - a reaping of the mature crop that God has planted in the earth.

Revelation 14 is very good to show that the taking of the saints is in terms of FIRSTFRUITS which ripen early and HARVEST which ripenes at the end. See Revelation 14:1-5 and Revelation 14:14-16

Between these two reapings are the events of the great tribulation of three and one half years. That is a reaping of FIRSTFRUITS close to the commencement of this great tribulation and a reaping of the HARVEST at its close.

Some of the crop is ready EARLY and as a reward is reaped BEFORE the commencement of the great tribulation. This will be a minority. The majority of the crop of God's people on earth will not be ready and will be RIPENED with the help of the events of the great tribulation. They TOO are raptured as a majority HARVEST at the three and one half year's conclusion.

In each case it is a matter of the GROWTH of the divine life within the believers. We should not be too subjective but care for one another and the gospel. In caring for one another a door will be opened to us to be ready to be raptured at the proper time.

One other passage in this post - Rapture is not a matter of many spiritual giants. Rather it is a reward for normal Christian brotherly love and being true to His word.

The church in Philadelphia does not consist of many spiritual giants. The Lord says that she has "a little strength" . Yet the door is opened to her that no man can shut - into the coming millennial age. And she is promised that she will be kept from the very HOUR of tribulation which is to come upon the whole earth.

Her need for that time has been superseded by the daily faithfulness and mutual brotherly love of the saints - all of which are really little ones, not particularly powerful.

And to the messenger of the church in Philadelphia write: These things says the Holy One, the true One, the One who has the key of David, the One who opens and no one will shut, and shuts and no one opens:

I know your works, behold, I have put before you an opened door which no one can shut, because you have a little power and have kept My word and have not denied My name. (Rev. 3:7,8)

Brotherly love (Philadelphia) calls for oneness. And not denying the name of the Lord Jesus requires that we hold no other name up above His. All things are ours. All servants of God are ours. But we are Christ's alone and He is God's alone. So in the oneness that hastens the Lord's turning of the age just little saints with faithfulness is the key. Christ opens a door to such which no critics can shut.

Please do not take any of this as some automatic assurance on my part because I meet on the local ground (churches according to cities). Grasp instead the principles. Here we see the lessons have been learned in DAILY walk which make the lessons of the great tribulation unncecessary. As a reward those who overcome the surrunding lukewarmness are taken out of the earth before it begins.

Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, top try them who dwell on the earth." (v.10)

The CONDITIONAL promise should not be overlooked. And difficulties arrive when it is ASSUMED that the entire church on earth will be raptured pre-tribulation. What does it SAY though? The promise to be kept out of the hour of worldwide trial is not based upon merely being a believer but upon overcoming surrounding degradation, which results in other names being exalted and longsuffering to be neglected.

BECAUSE ... you have kept the word of My endurance,

I ALSO will keep you out of the hour of trial ... "

IF you have a Recovery Version you should carefully read the footnotes of brother Witness Lee on this passage. They certainly have persuaded me upon careful examination.

Now I will only say a brief word about Revelation 7. This vision of a unnumerable multitude which came out of the great tribulation is an inserted vision to show GENERALLY - that God will preserve ALL those who have trusted in His salvation from the foundation of the world.

There "great tribulation" means the entire tribulation of all of world history since the creation of man on the earth.

These are those who come out of the overall great tribulation of all human history. The vision is an inserted vision simply to assure John that in spite of the severe judgments to come eventually ALL of God's saints from the foundation of the world will come through history to arrive in God's temple, God's bulding and rest in a symbolic Feast of Tabernacles with palm branches.

We are assured that ALL saints will be taken. This does not mean that all saints will be taken at the SAME time.

For length's sake, I stop here.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 663 by Faith, posted 08-14-2018 10:06 AM jaywill has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1218
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 660 of 1392 (838104)
08-13-2018 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 657 by jaywill
08-13-2018 10:07 PM


China wasn't "virgin soil" , Christians were seen as oppressive before 1900.
quote:

It makes some sense that God had to go to a "virgin" land like China where Christianity had not so entrenched itself in traditions, in order for God to open up and end/time channel for recovery of the church life

Study the Boxer Rebellion.

It was a 1899 rebellion against Christian power.

The Chinese nationalists that fled to Taiwan were (brutal) Christians.

China was led by a Christian from 1928 till the overthrow, and Chiang Kai-shek ruled Taiwan till 1975.

But almost 10% of China was ruled by a Christian king in the mid 1800s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Heavenly_Kingdom

quote:

The Taiping Rebellion, also known as the Taiping Civil War or the Taiping Revolution,[5] was a massive rebellion or total civil war in China that was waged from 1850 to 1864 between the established Manchu-led Qing dynasty and the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom under Hong Xiuquan.

The Taiping Heavenly Kingdom was an oppositional state based in Tianjing (present-day Nanjing) with a Christian millenarian agenda to initiate a major transformation of society. A self-proclaimed convert to Christianity and brother of Jesus Christ, Hong Xiuquan led an army that controlled a significant part of southern China during the middle of the 19th century, eventually expanding to command a population base of nearly 30 million people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion


I do see the "end times" themes as already in the consciousness.

And Christians had influence centuries earlier than the "end times" kingdom of 1850 .

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 657 by jaywill, posted 08-13-2018 10:07 PM jaywill has not yet responded

    
RewPrev1
...
4243
44
4546
...
93NextFF
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2018