Christianity and the End Times

That note was for Acts 21 and says what you described.

Jaywill, you seem to be answering both Phat and me in that post.

You say the great multitude of Revelation 7 is those who came out of great tribulation (were martyred?) over all time, and I'll accept that for now, but is there a description of a Great Tribulation following the Rapture somewhere?

Yes, Probably a little confusing. Forgive me for this effect. I love you both in the Lord. Being a tad touchy about the subject of the local churches because of years of apologetics has also caused me to be a little reactionary.I'm sorry if I confused my replies.This should be beneficial to all of us. The example of Enoch in Genesis is insightful. Enoch named his son Methusaleh. The meaning of the name is something like - "When he dies it will come." The "it" that will come is the judgment of Noah's flood.After Enoch had revelation that divine judgment upon the world was coming, he walked with God. The testimony of Enoch is that God would be pleased with his godly walk and actually REMOVE him from the place of judgment (Gen. 5:22-24) . God did this for a testimony as well as a blessing to Enoch.This should be a lesson to us. We see what is coming. We know what is coming. And even we have CHILDREN who are growing up into a world in which we know God will judge. What ELSE can we do but learn then, the walk with God?I believe that the record longevity of the life of Methusaleh is a testament to God's willingness that ALL be saved. Since "When he dies it will come" God's mercy caused Methuselah to live a record length among all mankind - 969 years (Gen. 5:27) I have kids also. And I see what is coming also. It gives me an incentive to want to walk with Jesus Christ. There will someday be a CORPORATE Enoch who will suddenly not be found, because they are suddenly taken. I would like to be among those ripening and being taken early before the world wide hour of trial.But the great tribulation, on the other hand, is a mercy of God to TURN the distracted Christians to Christ from the world completely. You don't think Christians during that time, if left on the earth, will be distracted by worldly amusements or sinful living any longer do you? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

So the reward of EARLY rapture will take place to a remnant of those who are overcoming. And the majority of the church will be left to ripen during the "heat" of the great tribulation. All things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose.Now to WALK with Jesus Christ is really more of the same as we initially received Him - in FAITH - taking Him as all that we need. So Paul says - AS we received Christ the Lord we should continue to WALK in Him. We received Him as little children - in faith.
We believed that ALL that we needed was in HIM.
We should continue to WALK in Him in the same way. We trust that what we need, He IS.For He is dwelling in the spirit of the born again believer. The Lord Jesus Christ IS with our spirit as Christians (2 Timothy 4:22) . He is living inside of the Christian. He is one spirit with the lover of Jesus - (1 Cor. 6:17) And we should learn to walk enjoying Him and trusting that what we need is found in Him.

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You say the great multitude of Revelation 7 is those who came out of great tribulation (were martyred?) over all time, and I'll accept that for now, but is there a description of a Great Tribulation following the Rapture somewhere?

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No, the huge multitude in Revelation 7 does not ONLY include those physically martyred.This vision should mean ALL believers in God from the foundation of the world who have passed through the trouble of the entire FALLEN WORLD history since Satan's corruption of the earth.My position then:1.) God inserts a vision to assure that ALL believers who trusted in God will eventually be saved.2.) Of course this includes those physically martyred and those not so.3.) Though "great tribulation" as a phrase appears more than once in
the New Testament, I would teach that in Revelation 7:14 it refers
to the entire world history as a "great tribulation". Now the specially, physically martyred saints are seen as the Manchild being raptured in Revelation 12. And the physically martyred saints in past ages is also seen in Revelation 6:9-11 - From Adam, Eve, and Abel through the last raptured saint before the millennial kingdom, all believers trusting in God enter into the kingdom through many tribulations.Tribulation works endurance. And endurance works hope. And hope does not put to shame. I stop here for length's sake. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Excuse me for confusing some remarks to you - Phat, with some remarks to Faith.Glad to see you obtained a RcV. There are many good English versions IMO.That we come to the word prayerfully and exercising our spirit over the words is excellent. We need a time to study and we need a time to be nourished by the words of faith.Lee helped us to learn to Prayread the words of the Bible. This has been practiced for centuries by many believers. lately some have emphasized it as good in the nourishment of the food in the Scripture.Witness Lee empahsized the need to take the word of God in by PRAYER - mixing our reading with our praying and our praying with our reading.In addition to this, anyone should be able to see that very careful analysis and exposition of the Bible ALSO has taken place in this ministry. The bird needs TWO wings to fly. The bird does not fly well with on ONE wing.So BOTH careful examination with tools of interpretation AND nourishing and refreshing our spirits by prayreading the word of God are our practice in the local churches.Small groups of believers can have hours of enjoyment in worship in their homes by corporately prayreading the words of the Bible. And then they may discuss and interpret after having been "nourished up in the words of the faith" (First Timothy 4:6).Dust that Rcv NT off and go back to some of the footnotes.

No, and I do often think there are many people who NEED to go through tribulation to be shaken up enough to avidly pursue Christ (and unfortunately that could include me). So when I think of family and friends who would go through it I pray for courage and spiritual strength for them.But in relation to the tribulation I'm thinking primarily of NONChristians, you seem to be thinking only of spiritually weak Christians. Do you think that those who do not now believe will not come to belief in the tribulation? Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Critics may suggest that this would amount to God scaring the reluctant ones into belief...which sorta negates free will. Comments?

I don't think you can scare anyone into actual belief in anything. They'll either believe or they won't, and according to the scripture I'd guess that a great many are going to continue in unbelief.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Rahab was not "raptured" because she lived while the Canaanites were slaughtered?If God kills you by taking you to heaven, then you are raptured?I found a timeline of the grandchildren of Adam.http://www.josephineelia.com/...uploads/2011/03/timeline.jpgEnoch was born in the year 622 after creation (AC)He was "raptured" 987 AC.Noah was born 1056 AC.So there was 70 years between righteous Enoch leaving Earth and Noah being born.Since the 490 days in Daniel are interpreted (by Christian prophecy folks today)to be years, and the last week is seen as "7 years" (by the same Christian prophecy people), then what to make of a raptured Enoch being gone for 70 years before the birth of Noah?Do you consider Methuselah and Lamech to have been evil since they were not raptured and had to live through this 70 year period?Methuselah might have even died in the flood (the math allows for him drowning in the Flood , dropping dead just before the Flood, or perhaps he was raptured too?)

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Though some may mistakenly think Methuselah died in the Flood, this is highly unlikely. Methuselah was raised by a godly parent (Enoch) who walked with God and pleased God so that God took him away without death. In fact, Methuselah may have actually helped Noah in the construction phase of the Ark. But his death preceded the Flood.

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https://answersingenesis.org/...logy/when-did-methuselah-die

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According to AIG, A godly man wasn't raptured. (they don't comment on the rapture part mind you)Jude said Enoch was a prophet. He "prophesied".But fundamentalists have always hated the fact that Jude used a Greek quote that matched the Ethiopian Enoch (or I Enoch)Here is the same Answers in Genesis source I linked to above.

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While Jude 1:14—15 quotes from the Book of Enoch (1:9), this simply means that the quote used by Jude was inspired of God as Scripture. It gives no credence to the idea that any other verse in the book of Enoch is inspired.

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Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, Behold, the Lord comes...This "inspired" word of Jude (though Jude says Enoch HIMSELF said it as a prophet) will link Enoch to modern day prophecy stuff.(Am I the only one who finds it ironic that the Greek text of Enoch, found only in Jude, is considered "inspired" but all the Aramaic, Hebrew, and Semitic Ethiopian quotes don't count as "inspired" because they aren't part of some "sacred European scripture"?)That and his "rapture".Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

There is no doubt that I'd have been Raptured if it had occurred in the early period of "first love." But over the years I lost that passion and enthusiasm and have found no way to recover it.That may be partly because I never learned the kind of discipline you say you were taught as a new Christian, to spend regular specific time with the Lord daily. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : THE THE Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Popular evangelical teaching interprets the multitude of Rev 7 as those martyred in the post-Rapture tribulation. It does seem to me to refer specifically to martyrs just because although there is always some degree of persecution attached to simply being a believer in the fallen world this passage specifically refers to GREAT tribulation. And I think the huge number of them can be accounted for if we interpret it in the light of Jesus' reference to the great tribulation where He says if God didn't cut it short no one would be left alive. We have seven billion people on the earth today, even a third of those would be pretty much "uncountable" if seen as one huge crowd. I do agree about the martyrs of Rev 6, not sure about your reference to the Manchild. But again, you could be right and I don't want to argue a lot about the interpretation of these things; Revelation is not an easy book to interpret.I like your point about Methuselah's name reflecting God's patience with unbelievers. I've also heard that the names of all the patriarchs from Seth to Noah make a sentence referring to the coming Flood.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I feel you. When I first "got saved" I had a natural high that critics would suggest was naive emotionalism and "feeling special" but it was a genuine inner joy that I have lost. I could say that reality has beaten me down...some of the arguments even here always challenge my thinking and never give me any hope--but in a way, this is a good thing in that my faith is being tested and refined.I do spend time in prayer and meditation, though not in a disciplined way such as jaywill likely does. I don't even go to church all the time anymore.EvC has challenged my faith and belief, and unlike you, I actually listen to the logic, reason, and reality-based arguments to a degree. I DO feel that when I am asked how I know that I am in a relationship with God, my opponents would never understand how such a thing could be possible...whereas jaywill likely would understand as would you.I can never understand how jar can be a Christian and yet not understand how a relationship with God is possible...though he likely would suggest that being in a relationship with the least of these is the same thing for him...thus he continues to do good works on a daily basis. I also don't understand how you have found no way to recover your first love. By faith, I don't believe I have ever lost it nor can lose it, but it's not by my doing that the relationship endures---it is entirely Gods doing.

Well I was "high as a kite" in those early years, blissed out on loving God, daily experiencing some wonderful aura or beautiful scent of Holy Spirit presence. I could see it waning over the years as I got involved in such things as this debate, which you also mention as a cause. Jesus describes some believers as having become lukewarm whom He wants to vomit out, to put it in its literal meaning, and talks of those who have lost our first love. We have to recover it somehow Phat.I really wish you wouldn't take what people say here so seriously, but all I can do is pray for you.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.