Christianity and the End Times

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Not only are you answering a rhetorical question, it also clearly refers to those who are taken in Matthew 24:40-41, which occurs at the time of the Second Coming.

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Caught up (Rev. 12:5) also indicates taken. You don't get the big picture.You don't get the relationship between things revealed in more than one place in Scripture.

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The Manchild is more usually taken to be Jesus. Note that it is said that he will rule the nations with a rod of iron as is the figure in Revelation 19:11-16 - who you identify as Jesus.

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You may go by what Manchild is "usually take to be" or what is the better interpretation. I go by the latter.Ad populism is not always the best way to interpret.And it is clear that some saints conditionally will reign with Christ. I am not sure to what extent you do not fathom the larger picture.What He does in terms of shepherding the nations, He will not do ALONE completely (Rev. 26) . Whereas YOU imagine some difference between Christ reigning and His co-kings among the saints reigning, the Bible sees them as the same. Otherwise it would not say AS ALSO I HAVE RECEIVED FROM MY FATHERPaul told the Christians in the church in Corinth that they may be expected to judge the world. Apparently, you do not know this.
But some of us do. And therefore it is no surprise that some raptured will be taken and rewarded to CO-REIGN with Christ.Did you think salvation was only a matter of getting a "ticket" to go to a happy Heaven ?quote:And the Manchild is also obviously a collective for he is described as "brothers," "their," "them," and "they" (12:10,11)
It is far from obvious that those verses refer to the manchild.

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It’s always inferred from dubious interpretations.

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It is obvious that TO HEAVEN the Manchild is caught up.
What is more disputed is the identity of the Manchild.My time to debate you on this today is under limitation.
But it is an old debate which I feel you cannot win - to make the Manchild mean ONLY the individual child Jesus.Show me where Jesus was caught up to the throne in Heaven after Mary gave birth to Him.The gathering of Matt. 24:31 is not pre-tribulation.The Firstfruits are and the Manchild are.Firstfruits are because of the way Revelation 14 is laid out.
The HEAT of the great tribulation aids to produce the HARVEST.
So the Firstfruits and the Harvest are separated in time by the great tribulation.Failing to notice pre-tribulation rapture is some other passages I regard as due to your dubious ability to get the larger picture. I am not sure how deep this shallowness in your understanding goes.The fact of the matter is that Pre-tribulation verses Post-tribulation debates have gone on for a long time. Some of us see that neither side can completely ignore the other.You seem to be trying to completely ignore evidences for a pre-tribulation rapture. While you do that, I, however, do not completely ignore valid evidences for a end of tribulation rapture.So so-called "Selective rapture" is an interpretation which is valid and takes into account evidences for both. And it reveals evidences for WHY there would be more than one rapture.

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If Matthew 24:31 is to be taken as referring only to Jews you are going to need some actual support from the text, not an assumed division which hardly supports the idea anyway.

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I listed twelve OT references. How many did you look up to examine?
Or did you just object on some general principle?That is all the time I have this morning.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

As I have suggested many times before, there's a difference between real belief and professed belief. You can shout your supposed "belief" from the rooftops but unless something real comes from your belief, who cares? (Only a very petty God would be impressed by empty profession of belief.)

Nothing you said explains my having a sense of the imminence, specifically of the Rapture, in the last few weeks. It's unusual. It might mean something.

Phat, I didn't say I "want a Rapture," what I've said is that I've come to believe the Rapture is imminent so I don't want to miss it. If it doesn't come soon as I've been expecting it to, I think the experience of expecting it, plus jaywill's encouragements, is going to lead me to more serious time with the Lord though, which I've already begun. I want to be ENraptured by Him as I was in the early days of my belief, not in order to be ready for the Rapture so much as that that was the happiest time of my life.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

You've been reading about it and decided to believe it. It's not surprising you now think it's about to happen. It means that you're deluded. Nothing is going to happen. Nothing has ever happened when people like you declare the end of the world.

OK, well you could be right that it's not going to happen within the next month as I've had in mind. But even if it doesn't that is no proof it won't happen at all.

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Caught up (Rev. 12:5) also indicates taken. You don't get the big picture.

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You don't get the relationship between things revealed in more than one place in Scripture.

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Massive non-sequiturs are hardly a good way to convince me of your ability to understand.

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You may go by what Manchild is "usually take to be" or what is the better interpretation. I go by the latter.

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Then please make your case that your preferred interpretation is better. Empty bluster is not convincing.

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Apparently, you do not know this.
But some of us do. And therefore it is no surprise that some raptured will be taken and rewarded to CO-REIGN with Christ.

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Which doesn’t matter. The phrase is still a good reason to think they are intended to be the same person, and it’s better than anything you’ve produced to support your interpretation.

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But it is an old debate which I feel you cannot win - to make the Manchild mean ONLY the individual child Jesus.

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Show me where Jesus was caught up to the throne in Heaven after Mary gave birth to Him.

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I don’t think that taking a sign in the sky literally is necessarily sensible. (I will note that, according to Acts 1:9 Jesus was taken up to Heaven). But how about you - can you show that the dead overcomers were taken up to Heaven after their literal births ? Or do we have a double standard here ?

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Failing to notice pre-tribulation rapture is some other passages I regard as due to your dubious ability to get the larger picture. I am not sure how deep this shallowness in your understanding goes.

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I’m not seeing it because it isn’t there. If you have big picture arguments you are free to make them, but if you try to tell me that Matthew 24:41-42 refers to events before the Tribulation without any reasonable arguments at all - as you,be been doing - it is not going to work and it is hardly my fault.

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I listed twelve OT references. How many did you look up to examine?
Or did you just object on some general principle?

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Your Old Testament references are by your own words to a promise to gather the Israelites together again. I am going to generously assume you are right about that. It’s still a lousy argument. Jesus’ chosen is more naturally read to refer to Christians and even if it did refer to Israelites alone the link with 24:31 remains intact.

Of course it isn't. Oh, good grief...The fact that my house didn't fly off into the sky today doesn't mean it will never fly off at all either.You doomsday merchants have been spouting this nonsense for thousands of years. But you learn nothing at all from it.

I don't recall your having mentioned a prophecy that your house will fly off into the sky. THAT would be the reason to think it will eventually do that. We can't "learn" what you want us to learn because we are looking at a prophecy that will eventually be fulfilled.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

The proof it won't happen at all is that all calls for an end-times based on "feelings of it's imminence" have been wrong for everyone who's ever had those feelings.Thousands and thousands of times - it's been proven that having "a very strong feeling" that the world will end soon is always wrong.The world will end one day, but if it will be predicted it will be by more than "feelings" - it will be predicted by evidence.Things based on feelings are right some times, but wrong most of the time.
Things based on evidence are wrong some times, but right most of the time.It's not a secret.

You think it would make any difference? The prophecy was to be fulfilled withing the lifetime of those hearing the prophecy. It failed. Ever since people like you predict it again and again. And again and again it doesn't happen. And you learn nothing from it.

We know it is future; insisting it must already have happened is a delusion of the unbelievers.

That is not what Tangle said, Faith. He agrees with you that it did not happen 2000 years ago.

No, it’s not a delusion! I have it on VERY good authority that the Rapture was in 1922, and that it took three Kentuckians and an old guy from Connecticut! I told you this already! It’s written down, so it’s true!!

Sorry, feelings of imminence are NOT how people generally determine when it is going to happen. No no no no no. They always figure it out with scriptural and historical calculations. I'm not even trying to argue for any certainty for my feelings of imminence but certainly this is not how the Rapture is usually predicted. No absolutely no, don't read my own experience into these things. I saw a video not too long ago where this pastor was putting together all kinds of historical and biblical information that led him to his own conclusion about when it might happen. And he didn't say it WOULD happen, just as I'm not saying that. We are looking at likely possibilities. ALL THE TIMING claims I've ever heard are based on that sort of calculation and I never find them very conclusive.But NOBODY ELSE has made an argument from FEELINGS. And besides my feeling of imminence is based on some events in my own life, somebody calling out of the blue about something related, omebody sending me something that relates, things like that that have been happening over the last few weeks that to my mind symbolize an imminent Rapture possibility, stuff that is just happening, not in any way intended to prove anything or even consciously related to the Rapture.Last night I happened to turn on the radio as the book of Revelation was being read: earlier in the day I'd wanted to hear it read having no idea it was in line to be read on the radio many hours later. Revelation 5 to 13 was read, and it is very informative to hear it all read in order like that because you can see how the images flow one after the other more easily than when you read it yourself. To my mind that was God's hand you see, and that's the sort of thing that's been happening a lot lately, although most of the events have had more direct pertinence to the idea of the Rapture itself, while the book of Revelation is more about the Tribulation.So it's been these odd occurrences that contain some symbolic relation to the Rapture that have been adding up to this feeling of imminence. So even my feeling is more a collection of happenings that suggest a soon coming Rapture to my mind than just a feeling out of the blue. Of course I've been praying a lot about all these things too.As I said maybe I'm a crackpot, but that's where I'm getting this sense of imminence.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.