Christianity and the End Times

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Perhaps a few posts I will dedicate to this ANSWERING of the beseeching of the saints in the Fifth Seal. Others alive on the earth are praying likewise to God similar prayers.

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The following vision shows that God REACTS to His saints PRAYING in Christ to Him for God to ACT in the earth. He will not move unilaterally without the echo and cooperation of His saints on earth.Study the vision carefully the opening of the Seventh Seal in Revelation chapter 8Silence, SILENCE ... in heaven for about a half an hour. This should indicate the solemnity of the moment. The age is bout to change. The age of God's toleration is coming to a close and the age of His judging the world is commencing. It is a solemn transition.Again Christ is seen as another Angel this time offering the prayers of His people as acceptable incense before God. The Angel is Christ functioning as a heavenly Priest. Not all prayers are that acceptable to God. Not all men's prayers are that sweet to God. Sometimes selfish or unhealthy self centered motives may be mediocre prayers to God.They don't mean that much to His eternal purpose. But the incense must represent Christ Himself. When saints pray in the realm of Christ, the fragrance of the beloved Son renders their petitions sweet to God and more acceptable.The offering Priest is Christ. But the incense added to the prayers of the believers is also Christ. God detects the heart of Christ in their petitions. God discerns the mind of Christ in their beseeching. And this is sweet to Him."Oh God, I need a Cadillac car." may not be so sweet to God." Of God, let me get a raise on my job next month" may be answered but not that sweet to His ears.Prayers stemming from LIVING in the sphere and realm of Christ are sweet as incense to God. The beginning of the execution of God's judgments upon first the earth and then upon the people of the earth directly, is the response to the prayers of the saints.Both the beseeching of those martyred ones underneath the altar in the Fifth Seal and all the saints symbolized as offering up prayers from the hand of the Priestly Angel result in Divine reaction.In the RcV the heading reads for Revelation 8:3-5

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i. The Scene in Heaven
after the Opening of the Seventh Seal --
Christ as the High Priest Offering the Prayers
of the Saints to God
8:3-5

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Fire from the altar is cast into the earth by the Angel offering up the prayers of the saints.The several small footnote of the Recover Version Bible reads about chapter 8 - Above "God's economy" is not about finance. The Greek word OIKONOMIA (as in "God's oikonomia") means His household management. It is sometimes translated as DISPENSATION. Sometimes it is translated STEWARDSHIP. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

And, as jar has pointed out to you repeatedly it is not the motive that is suspect but rather the arguments that should be addressed against the evidence available.I challenge jaywill not based on his motives but rather his behavior, his constant misrepresentation of what others post, his constant tactic of taking passages out of context, his constant changing the topic and moving the goal posts and trying to change the subject and insert irrelevancies unrelated to the topic being discussed. I try to do the same when it is someone opposing theology and religion.When we see behavior like jaywill we can easily determine the purpose and effects of his tactics but not the motive; is he trying to make Christianity look stupid and dishonest or is he simply reflecting the dogma of his cult? Is he intentionally lying or does he actually believe the nonsense he posts? Those are motive questions and honestly I can not think of anyway the actual motives short of asking the person and then accepting their answer.Motives are no where near as important as the content. The snake in Gen 2&3 may well have had a motive of creating mischief but that does not change the fact that in the story the snake told the truth and the God lied. And no where in the story is there any information that would show us the snake's motive.

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Genesis 3 King James Version (KJV)

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3 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

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2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

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3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

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4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

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5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

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6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

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7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

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I agree, jaywill. Unlike most of my Christian brethren at my church, I am unafraid to study and listen to the atheist's arguments and actually endure what they say...though it annoys me...grieves my "Spirit" as it were. Here at EvC I have jar, a self-professed Creedal Christian from the Episcopalian tradition...a "recognized club" as it were...yet who often sides with the relentless raw logic of the atheists such as PaulK and ringo. I also watch many debates between noted atheists and equally noted apologists, philosophers, and clergy who have professional study of scripture. In such arguments and discussions, I look not only for "facts" or evidence-based arguments. I look primarily at motive and intention. What a book says is basic and unarguable. What a book means, however, is central to these discussions themselves. Keep doing what you are doing...the time spent is not in vain, even if only one person reading this discussion is positively impacted by the arguments and more importantly the motives behind the arguments.

See...I would argue that motives are more important than the content. We both know that anyone can have the Bible quotemined to say anything that they want it to say. This is why I always wonder why you emphasize the snakes "truthfulness" and Gods (or as you say the god character) supposed lies. You are basically pushing your own agenda just as much as myself, jaywill, or any other apologist. The crux of your message..in my opinion, and correct me if I'm wrong...is that the content of the Bible is written by men in the context of the culture and time and that Christianity is about what we do and not about following the interpretations of any specific group.
jaywills motives are to make a case for a living Christ made alive through scripture and reality itself. I would lean towards knowing and loving Christ as being more important than simply what I or anyone else does on a given day, though to be fair, both your argument and jaywills argument find common ground in what is being done.I find fault with your arguments because you denigrate apologists and Biblical Christians in general. What ax have you to grind with us?

Tangle's few:

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Jaywill, YOU don't half preach a load of total BOLLOX

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Tangle, some of us are here examining the Second Coming of Christ and the end of the age.In route we see from the Bible something of human origins, human nature, the human purpose for existence, THE human problem, the destiny of humanity, the universe, and the climax of the eternal purpose of the Creator, and an example of a Perfect human life along with His availability to experience and live with.What in YOUR philosophy do you offer me that is superior to the teaching of Jesus Christ and the Bible ? Take a post to explain something of what I would gain by dropping my faith in Christ and picking up your philosophy of life.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

That's simple. I simply report what is actually written. That is not an agenda other than being honest. I only report what apologists and Biblical Christians in general actually do. If you consider that denigration then perhaps you should step back and reappraise the actions. It is not my message Phat but simply reporting what the Bible says Jesus told us to do.

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What a book means, however, is central to these discussions themselves. Keep doing what you are doing...the time spent is not in vain, even if only one person reading this discussion is positively impacted by the arguments and more importantly the motives behind the arguments.

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Thank you for some word of encouragement.Some people go to the Bible to find God.Some other people dive head first deep into the Bible hoping to get AWAY from God.
They figure that THAT is the place, if anyplace, to get away from God.They come to the letter but their heart is far, far removed from God.Its a peculiar phenomenon - to dive into studying the Bible to assure oneself that it need not be listened to. Many of these types of people like to sneak up on believers in Christ in stealth and cunning for some reason. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

What are your motives for not believing in unicorns? Do you hate unicorns that much?

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See...I would argue that motives are more important than the content. We both know that anyone can have the Bible quotemined to say anything that they want it to say.

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That is a very negative view of the Bible. I believe that the quote-miners can and should be opposed.The idea that motives count for more than the substance comes close to the ends justify the means. Not to mention the famous saying about the road to Hell.Besides, how can you really know the motives? Are you really going to trust what Jaywill says about his motives? At the least he regards promoting certain teacher’s views above honestly reporting what the Bible says.

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This is why I always wonder why you emphasize the snakes "truthfulness" and Gods (or as you say the god character) supposed lies. You are basically pushing your own agenda just as much as myself, jaywill, or any other apologist.

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In the story, God was certainly not entirely straight about the fruit, and the serpent at worst omitted things that Eve might have wanted to know. Even being generous to your side that is fact. It is not quote-mining to say so. Which certainly puts jar ahead of Jaywill.

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Nor did I say EVERY serpent is Satan. Nut the serpent in Eden was Satan.

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Reality is more fascinating then Science Fiction.A collective overcoming new man of God's salvation will subdue God's enemy under its corporate feet. You may have seen that movie from Stanley Kubrick 2001 A Space Odyssey. In that last scene to the trumphant music of Richard Strauss's orchestral work Thus Also Spach Zarathustra we saw a child in a woman floating down toward the earth.This sense that I got was that this represented the next stage in Evolution. This new mankind arrived who was stronger, smarter, and more capable than the previous level of humanity.The floating baby in a woman's embryo represented the great expected advancement in Evolution. Why not in the word of God a similar vision - a victorious Man-child who is to defeat Satan, the birth of a collective overcomer through Jesus Christ.I believe before 2001 a Space Odyssey got the idea, the book of Revelation already had the idea. That is to depict the next level of man in God's salvation as stronger, wiser, more capable to have dominion over the earth on behalf of God - the Man-child resurrected and raptured to the throne of God.And if you ever see that scene again of the big baby within an embryo floating down to earth to a grand musical fanfare, I hope you'll think of the man-child in Revelation 12 destined to express God and reign on the earth with Jesus Christ the God-man. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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Besides, how can you really know the motives? Are you really going to trust what Jaywill says about his motives? At the least he regards promoting certain teacher’s views above honestly reporting what the Bible says.

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My motives are right out up front and on the table. I help people to believe the Bible.You're here to help people disbelieve the Bible. You're evidently ashamed or just too cowardly to confess it.I study the Bible to help people believe in God and experience God.You study the Bible to help people disbelieve in God.I guess being sneaky about it and concealing your intention works better for you. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

It isn't the Bible that you promote. It's a fanciful tale that's intertwined with the Bible but mostly made up.

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My motives are right out up front and on the table. I help people to believe the Bible.

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Well that isn’t true for a start.

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You're here to help people disbelieve the Bible. You're evidently ashamed or just too cowardly to confess it.

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And that isn't true either. I want people to believe the truth. If the Bible happens to be true then I don’t mind in the least.That’s why I got in a huge argument about Jesus mythicism here. A mythicist was using such bad arguments I had to contradict him (and he did not like it in the least). I don’t promote mythicism - the historical evidence for Jesus is poor but it’s good enough for an obscure figure who had no great impact on society in life.

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I challenge jaywill not based on his motives but rather his behavior, his constant misrepresentation of what others post, his constant tactic of taking passages out of context,

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Yea, yea. Practically every time skeptics losing ground on exegetical grounds try their luck at attacks on behavior.I would like to compare your life's philosophy with the promises of the Holy Bible.Jar, where do you see history going ?
What if any, culmination for the human race and the universe do YOU believe in ?Where is it all leading up to?
Have any expectations about that based on your philosophy?Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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Well that isn’t true for a start.

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I help people believe the truth of the Bible.
You help people believe that it isn't the truth.The difference is clear.Watch.I believe and teach that Jesus Christ the Son of God died a redemptive death and rose from the dead on the third day, according to the Scriptures.You're here to teach people that that is not true. Am I right ?You poor over the pages of the Bible hunting for reasons NOT to believe what it says about the incarnation, life, death, and resurrection of the Son of God.I mean basically what the serpent did to Eve you are here doing something like that "DID GOD REALLY SAY thus and such ??"Right?