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Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
Phat
Member
Posts: 11422
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1321 of 1581 (839509)
09-09-2018 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1320 by jar
09-09-2018 11:54 AM


Re: Back to the End Times
jar writes:

Stop and try to think Phat. See if you can figure out how you are misrepresenting what I post. If you can figure that out then ask yourself WHY you constantly misrepresent what others post? (HINT, I explain just above how you are misrepresenting my positions, see if you can find it.)

sometimes its fun arguing with you! My best guess is this sentence:
quote:
What makes you think I revere human wisdom within yourself and others over (what other kind of wisdom could there be than human wisdom; trying to find the word, OH, yes, fantasy) unsupported belief? Should I prefer unsupported belief over supported and evidenced beliefs?

Was that it? Am I making up your positions to add to my fantasy?

They are characters, plot devices in the story. They have no reality beyond being plot devices in the story.
So where do you get your idea of who God actually is? The Nicene Creed? Your beloved late Mama? Joe Wood?

Did the idea not originate within you?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1320 by jar, posted 09-09-2018 11:54 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1322 by jar, posted 09-09-2018 2:20 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 1322 of 1581 (839514)
09-09-2018 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1321 by Phat
09-09-2018 12:06 PM


Re: Back to the End Times
Phat writes:

Am I making up your positions to add to my fantasy?

Yes, yes you are.

Phat writes:

So where do you get your idea of who God actually is? The Nicene Creed? Your beloved late Mama? Joe Wood?

Did the idea not originate within you?

I have said repeatedly that I cannot say who GOD actually is, beyond almost certainly not anything I can imagine. And no, the idea did not originate within me, rather it is a conclusion based on input and evidence for an unknown number of people and sources.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1321 by Phat, posted 09-09-2018 12:06 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6243
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 1323 of 1581 (839517)
09-09-2018 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1316 by jaywill
09-09-2018 8:07 AM


jaywill writes:

Now, I have come to think it was - One small step for man and one giant leap for American propaganda.

The problem here, jaywill, is your credulousness. You are prepared to believe the truly incredible that has been proven beyond rational doubt to be wrong whilst not believing things that are fully and factually evidenced. In short you're irrational and deluded.

I consider myself open minded about counter arguments.

That was so good I put it in orange bold for you. You missed a chance there.

Now you can put together two or three sentences to tell us what you have INSTEAD of the teaching of Jesus Christ and the prophecy of the climax of human history.

There's a presumption in that question that's typically patronising of you believers. The vast majority of people in the world do not need anything instead of your Jesus Christ and never have and never will. They either have their own equally crazy belief system or no belief at all.

In my case it's no belief at all of course, I don't need your crutch of future promises of everlasting life to enjoy my life here and now. My life is fulfilled by my career, my family and friends and various other interests. It's productive, useful and busy and I don'twaste any of it on my knees worshipping false gods. But thanks for asking.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1316 by jaywill, posted 09-09-2018 8:07 AM jaywill has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15587
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1324 of 1581 (839518)
09-09-2018 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1307 by jaywill
09-08-2018 8:19 PM


Re: Back to the End Times
jaywill writes:

The Bible has a funny effect on some people. The less they read it the more they fancy themselves to be experts on it.


I, for one, don't consider myself to be an expert on the Bible. I was almost literally born in church and I could literally quote Bible verses long before I could read. I have read the Bible far more since I stopped believing it. It's worth more as literature that as a guide to life or reality.

I do know my way around the Bible a bit and the Internet makes it easy to search.

I could name several people here who are far more expert than I am. Some are Christians, some are not.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1307 by jaywill, posted 09-08-2018 8:19 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6243
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1325 of 1581 (839519)
09-09-2018 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1317 by jaywill
09-09-2018 9:19 AM


Re: Back to the End Times
Jaywill writes:

So I ask you again. Who in human history do you think displayed more of a sober minded grasp of proper priorities on reasoning, ethics, morality, and human purpose than Jesus Christ ?

You can ask as often as you like, I given you my answer twice now.

Who do you find to be more sober minded?
This time don't hide behind The Hobbit characters.

Frodo is a Lord of the Rings character, do try to keep up. He drove evil out of Middle Earth and saved the Shire which is more than your fictional hero did. Your storybook hero just made a series of promises that didn't amount to anything.

Have you studied what other great minds in the world have had to say about Jesus?

Oh yes, I particularly like what CS Lewis has to say. He's better at making shit up than most, but not one of them have any more knowledge about JC that you or I do. All that is know is in that one book. The rest is literary criticism.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1317 by jaywill, posted 09-09-2018 9:19 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1326 by jaywill, posted 09-09-2018 7:38 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 1327 by Faith, posted 09-09-2018 8:01 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 1331 by jaywill, posted 09-10-2018 2:14 AM Tangle has responded

  
jaywill
Member
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1326 of 1581 (839523)
09-09-2018 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1325 by Tangle
09-09-2018 2:43 PM


Re: Back to the End Times
So your implied answer is that Jesus of Nazareth was not a person in history.

You are a "Jesus Myther" then ?

No such person ever lived at all ?

quote:
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."

You observed that no such person as Jesus of Nazareth ever lived though we have more reason to hold he lived then we do that Alexander the Great lived or surely as much that Julius Caesar lived.

Wherever you got your education you should go get your money back.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1325 by Tangle, posted 09-09-2018 2:43 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1328 by PaulK, posted 09-10-2018 12:26 AM jaywill has responded
 Message 1344 by Tangle, posted 09-10-2018 4:57 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30034
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1327 of 1581 (839525)
09-09-2018 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1325 by Tangle
09-09-2018 2:43 PM


Re: Back to the End Times
C S Lewis also said somewhere something like how his knowledge of literature gives him the ability to tell that the Bible is not fiction.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1325 by Tangle, posted 09-09-2018 2:43 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1334 by Tangle, posted 09-10-2018 2:47 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14490
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1328 of 1581 (839529)
09-10-2018 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1326 by jaywill
09-09-2018 7:38 PM


Re: Back to the End Times
quote:

You observed that no such person as Jesus of Nazareth ever lived though we have more reason to hold he lived then we do that Alexander the Great lived or surely as much that Julius Caesar lived

That is certainly not true. Both Alexander and Julius Caesar had massive impact in life and left far more evidence (which is certainly not limited to written evidence). Jesus was an obscure figure who left little trace in the events of the time.

“Christian” apologists, sadly, have little regard for the truth.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1326 by jaywill, posted 09-09-2018 7:38 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1329 by jaywill, posted 09-10-2018 1:27 AM PaulK has responded

    
jaywill
Member
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


(1)
Message 1329 of 1581 (839530)
09-10-2018 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1328 by PaulK
09-10-2018 12:26 AM


Re: Back to the End Times
quote:
That is certainly not true. Both Alexander and Julius Caesar had massive impact in life and left far more evidence (which is certainly not limited to written evidence). Jesus was an obscure figure who left little trace in the events of the time.

You have here over 14,300 posts. How many posts do you have on this Forum or on any other, in which you argued / debated about Alexander the Great or Julius Caesar ?

Don't you think you have given undue attention to disputing the impact on your life of Christ, if Christ is merely fictional compared to those men ?

In the wee hours of the night, whose influence do you contemplate more, that of Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar or Jesus Christ ?

I think you contemplate the words of Jesus and what they may mean to you more than the lives of Alexander the Great or Julius Caesar.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1328 by PaulK, posted 09-10-2018 12:26 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1330 by PaulK, posted 09-10-2018 1:56 AM jaywill has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14490
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1330 of 1581 (839531)
09-10-2018 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1329 by jaywill
09-10-2018 1:27 AM


Re: Back to the End Times
quote:

You have here over 14,300 posts. How many posts do you have on this Forum or on any other, in which you argued / debated about Alexander the Great or Julius Caesar ?

I have very few arguing about Jesus either.

But what impact did Jesus have in life that compares to Alexander’s conquest of the Persian Empire ? Caesar’s impact was not so great as that, but he was deeply involved in Roman politics, conquered Gaul and brought about the end of the Republic.

Simply talking about the impact of Christianity today is an evasion of the point. In life Jesus was a briefly faddish preacher with perhaps a few hundred followers. You should accept that because how else to explain the poverty of the record ? We have nothing written about him while he lived.

quote:

Don't you think you have given undue attention to disputing the impact on your life of Christ, if Christ is merely fictional compared to those men ?

I was neither claiming that Jesus was fictitious nor talking about anyone’s influence on my life. Therefore the question is quite absurd. The question is the matter of historical evidence.

quote:

In the wee hours of the night, whose influence do you contemplate more, that of Alexander the Great, or Julius Caesar or Christ ?

None of them.

quote:

I think you contemplate the words of Jesus and what they may mean to you more than the lives of Alexander the Great or Julius Caesar.

You are wrong. But to add a point relevant to historical evidence we have Caesar’s words in his own writings. Jesus left none. All we have are words attributed to him, decades after he died, themselves translations, since Jesus would have spoken Aramaic, not the Greek of the New Testament.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1329 by jaywill, posted 09-10-2018 1:27 AM jaywill has not yet responded

    
jaywill
Member
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1331 of 1581 (839532)
09-10-2018 2:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1325 by Tangle
09-09-2018 2:43 PM


Re: Back to the End Times
quote:
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."

I would like you to apply your axiom to this lecture to see if any of your views on moon landings are affected. Maybe you have some essentially religious beliefs about the claims of scientists at NASA. Maybe you piously preserve some modern superstitions.

Has Man Ever Set Foot on the Moon?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Fw1l-4EBEI

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1325 by Tangle, posted 09-09-2018 2:43 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1335 by Tangle, posted 09-10-2018 3:07 AM jaywill has not yet responded
 Message 1336 by jar, posted 09-10-2018 6:54 AM jaywill has responded

  
jaywill
Member
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1332 of 1581 (839534)
09-10-2018 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by PaulK
06-24-2018 4:46 PM


quote:
“The End is Coming Soon” is quite a cliche. There have been numerous occasions in the past where Christians have believed that the end times are almost upon us. And - certainly today - there is no shortage of people prepared to profit from it. We even see daft ideas like bar-codes being the Mark of the Beast (they aren’t).
But what does the Bible really say. You won’t find out from those selling an imminent apocalypse.

I intend to survey the major end-time predictions and see if they really do match the present situation.

Bible Study please.


You wrote here about 234 posts dealing with such things as Christ's discourse in Matthew 24.

So you tell me now you don't think too much about what Jesus said or the impact of His predictions and teachings?

If His impact is roughly less than, or certainly not more than the impact of Julius Caesar or Alexander the Great can you show me where you voiced as much concern for their influence on things you feel need discussion?

Jesus said "Heaven and earth will pass away, by My words shall not pass away." . Two millennia has arguably given us reason to wonder why His words and life are so endurable.

Is there anything as momentous, as significant from the mouths of Alexander the Great or Julius Caesar ?

So you yawn and ho hum the warnings of Christ? Well, I don't. I consider His teaching that every idle word I speak or write I will one day accunt to God for. And my words will be the cause of my justification or my condemnation.

"And I say to you that every idle word which men shall speak, they will render an account concerning it in the day of judgment.

For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned. " (Matt. 12:36,37)

In two minutes can you by comparison indicate more significant words attributed to Alexander or Julius Caesar ?

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by PaulK, posted 06-24-2018 4:46 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1333 by PaulK, posted 09-10-2018 2:37 AM jaywill has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14490
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1333 of 1581 (839535)
09-10-2018 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1332 by jaywill
09-10-2018 2:31 AM


quote:

You wrote here about 234 posts dealing with such things as Christ's discourse in Matthew 24.

And many of those posts do not deal with words attributed to Jesus. As you certainly ought to know.

quote:

If His impact is roughly less than, or certainly not more than the impact of Julius Caesar or Alexander the Great can you show me where you voiced as much concern for their influence on things you feel need discussion?

Your continued attempts to change the subject prove that you know I’m right. Why not have the honesty to admit it ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1332 by jaywill, posted 09-10-2018 2:31 AM jaywill has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6243
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


(3)
Message 1334 of 1581 (839537)
09-10-2018 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1327 by Faith
09-09-2018 8:01 PM


Re: Back to the End Times
Faith writes:

C S Lewis also said somewhere something like how his knowledge of literature gives him the ability to tell that the Bible is not fiction.

Well that's real proof isn't it? Do'h.

He alo said this

quote:
“Say what you like,” we shall be told, “the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, ‘this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.’ And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else.”

It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible.



Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1327 by Faith, posted 09-09-2018 8:01 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6243
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1335 of 1581 (839538)
09-10-2018 3:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1331 by jaywill
09-10-2018 2:14 AM


Re: Back to the End Times
jaywill writes:

Maybe you have some essentially religious beliefs about the claims of scientists at NASA. Maybe you piously preserve some modern superstitions.

There's a very large problem here jaywill. The problem is that you believe a series of imposible events that alegedly happened thousands of years ago without any evience at all other than they're in a book of myths written by anonymous authors.

You believe stuff like talking snakes, miraculous cures, global floods deliberately caused, people being made out of dust - stuff we KNOW can't happen, stuff we know beyond doubt didn't happen, but you don't believe modern day stuff we know CAN happen and that we have huge quantities of evidence for.

You're both credulous and a motivated thinker, nothing you say can be trusted.

I'm not watching your video, if you have something more to say about the moon landings you need to say it; start a new thread on it, I'm sure it will be very popular.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1331 by jaywill, posted 09-10-2018 2:14 AM jaywill has not yet responded

  
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