Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,808 Year: 3,065/9,624 Month: 910/1,588 Week: 93/223 Day: 4/17 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Evangelical Switch from Pro-choice to Anti-abortion
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 136 of 441 (837342)
07-30-2018 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Stile
07-30-2018 1:50 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
I think it is now clear that since you dispute the biological/genetic humanness from conception, and even its obvious humanness at twelve weeks, that's why you get so caught up in those secondary situational issues, because if you recognized its essential humanness you would be a lot more cautious about ANY situational argument in favor of killing it. The sperm and egg were discussed far back in this discussion. You might benefit from reading from a few pages back.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Stile, posted 07-30-2018 1:50 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Stile, posted 07-30-2018 2:49 PM Faith has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 137 of 441 (837344)
07-30-2018 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Faith
07-30-2018 2:11 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Faith writes:
because if you recognized its essential humanness you would be a lot more cautious about ANY situational argument in favor of killing it.
How so?
Can you explain? Without an explanation, your words fall limp.
The sperm and egg were discussed far back in this discussion. You might benefit from reading from a few pages back.
I did read it.
It didn't make the difficult decision any easier.
I think, however, that you might benefit from recognizing that an egg and a sperm are not the same as a human being.
Any attempt to equivocate the two is silly.
A piece of coral has the potential to become a coral reef.
But arguing that all pieces of coral should be treated like all coral reefs is silly.
When you insist that an egg and a sperm are definitely "a human life" it shows you're not interested in discussion to figure out the truth of the matter.
It shows you have your opinion, you like your opinion, and you want everyone else to adopt your opinion.
That's fine for you... but sucks for anyone else who is simply interested in figuring out the truth - regardless of your opinion on the matter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Faith, posted 07-30-2018 2:11 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Faith, posted 07-30-2018 8:54 PM Stile has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22389
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 138 of 441 (837347)
07-30-2018 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Heathen
07-30-2018 9:19 AM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Heathen writes:
...until born a fetus is not yet a living human being
I've arrived at this topic late, but this statement stood out.
Is this genuinely your belief?
No, it's not, and as you read on through the thread you probably saw where I reminded Faith I wasn't arguing my position but the Biblical position that I quoted in Message 17, just a few messages before my Message 21 that you're replying to. As I said in Message 33:
Percy in Message 33 writes:
I've been arguing the highly ambiguous Bible position because you're a Bible believing Christian. I have not been arguing my own personal beliefs which are not taken from the Bible.
Though the thread now seems to be discussing abortion, the original topic was about how evangelicals switched their position on abortion. If you go back to that Message 17 you'll see some of how evangelicals used to justify abortion, and I was arguing that position with Faith.
For myself I have mostly questions and few answers, see Message 34.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Heathen, posted 07-30-2018 9:19 AM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Heathen, posted 07-31-2018 4:12 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22389
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 139 of 441 (837354)
07-30-2018 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Faith
07-29-2018 11:30 AM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Faith writes:
Neither will a fertilized egg grow up "all by itself" to be a baby. It needs a uterus, a placenta, a living female host, and nothing to go wrong, such as lack of implantation, implantation in the wrong place, birth defects, health problems, etc.
Which is why I often qualify it with a phrase along the lines of "if it's healthy" or "under the right circumstances."
But that doesn't avoid the unaswerable questions. What does healthy mean? No birth defects? Minor birth defects? Major birth defects? Won't live more than 20 years (cystic fibrosis)? Won't live more than 10 years? Won't live more than a year? Won't live more than a day?
But it is also true for the born baby or the toddler or the five-year old, that they could not live by themselves without the care of adults. Nor could many elderly live on their own either.
Another topic, but lots of unanswerable questions there, too.
All the ingredients were there just prior to conception, too.
Separately the ingredients won't turn into a baby, conception is needed for that.
So is implantation. There are still unanswerable questions. How many of the necessary elements have to have come together before it is considered a human being, and why?
Is a fetus a human being before life has been breathed into it?
That's why Tangle was using the term "potential" human life.
There were unanswerable questions I posed there, too, which I won't bother repeating.
But if you want to make taking its first breath your criterion, then it is not a human being until it is born, and if you want to make that the line you'd draw before which it's OK to kill it you are accepting the killing of a fully formed baby.
We had this conversation already. Nothing's changed since I explained back in Message 33:
Percy in Message 33 writes:
It isn't my standard. I'm not a Bible believer, remember. I'm just citing where the Bible says that life begins with the first breath.
Moving on:
Why the lack of concern for what you're considering human life during the very early stages after conception when so many things can go wrong? If you truly felt they were as much human beings as a born baby then why are there no efforts to begin research programs to save these human beings?
Well but there is concern for that stage too, since I've said I think it is morally wrong to kill it that early as well as later because it is also a stage of human growth. But I'm not arguing all the stages are equal since I agree with Tangle that our emotional and moral feelings grow as the fetus grows, I'm just saying there's no stage at which it is right to kill it.
And you're welcome to that opinion. My original point was that evangelicals used to feel the opposite, and they cited the Bible to support their position.
I meant at some level of our consciousness we know it is wrong to kill what we know is a developing human being.
Why does declaring that this is true of everyone make sense to you?
I think we all know this unconsciously at least, because it's a matter of common knowledge,...
Really? I could just as unreasonably say, "We all know this isn't so unconsciously at least, because it's a matter of common knowledge,..." Of course, I would never say that, for several reasons. First, I'm reasonable. Second, I wouldn't claim knowledge I don't have. Third, I know I don't have many answers, mostly just questions. Fourth, I think many of the questions are unanswerable.
...but of course some would be more sensitive to the knowledge than others.
This would be emotional or moral knowledge?
I've mentioned the fact that many women get depressed over an abortion which I think reflects this knowledge, and my own dream told me I knew it too although I thought it was "just a piece of tissue" before.
How do you know you're correct today and were wrong before? Maybe the opposite is true. Aren't you really talking about the way you feel today, rather than what you know today.
But if you want to point out that many women have no feeling about it at all, I'll accept that.
I don't know why I would say anything about something I have little knowledge of.
I'll also go on to say that objectively it IS a developing human being no matter what anyone feels about it.
Oh, well, since you used capital letters it must be so.
It's the OBJECTIVE fact that I want to emphasize, that it is NOT a mere "process" or a "piece of tissue" at any stage after conception.
It is both of those.
Hippocrates considered abortion to be a "harm," that's all I know about his views.
Actually his original oath says for a physician not to use a specific technique for causing an abortion, and that's left out of the modern oath, which has been often rewritten. He never said anything about whether abortion was a harm. He also said for a physician not to operate for kidney stones, also not in any modern oath.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Faith, posted 07-29-2018 11:30 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Faith, posted 07-30-2018 9:05 PM Percy has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 140 of 441 (837358)
07-30-2018 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Stile
07-30-2018 2:49 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Yes, I've worked out my opinion and I want to persuade others of it.
I suppose I might have had some of the same thoughts you have years ago but I'm now so convinced of the inherent living humanness of the fetus/baby from conception to birth I find all the "difficult" questions fairly easily answered against killing it. It would have to be a very serious difficulty indeed for me to consider that. And it does seem to me that most of the difficulties arise in people's minds because it is not thought of as a human life.
I don't see how you can deny that genetically the fertilized egg is human. If nothing interferes it will inexorably grow into a human being and everybody knows that without getting scientific about it.
But since you do deny it, and you even deny its humanness at twelve weeks when most of us see a living baby there, where WOULD you "draw the line?" At some particular age or size? How would you choose it?
What if you just start at the fully formed baby within minutes of birth: why or why not do you regard it as human and would you ever support aborting it at that stage and for what reasons?
How about a month before its due date? Two months? Three months? and so on. Until you find the point at which you definitely don't think of it as human and definitely think abortion is a reasonable solution to what you regard as a difficult situation?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Stile, posted 07-30-2018 2:49 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by jar, posted 07-31-2018 7:23 AM Faith has replied
 Message 171 by Stile, posted 08-01-2018 9:34 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 141 of 441 (837359)
07-30-2018 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Percy
07-30-2018 6:16 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
What I said to Stile is my answer to you too. I think it all comes down to recognizing the growing fetus as a human being, which I think is recognized at least by the fact that as long as nothing interferes it will grow to be a human being.
I don't want to split hairs about any of these things. "Healthy" means healthy enough to grow into a recognizable human being. We all have some sort of health problems but they don't keep us from being human. It's a simple point: we all know if it's healthy and nothing interferes with its development it will become a recognizable human being and that's a major criterion for defining it as a human being from conception.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Percy, posted 07-30-2018 6:16 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Percy, posted 07-31-2018 3:28 PM Faith has not replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 142 of 441 (837360)
07-31-2018 4:12 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Percy
07-30-2018 3:16 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
as you read on through the thread you probably saw where I reminded Faith I wasn't arguing my position but the Biblical position that I quoted
Apologies, my misunderstanding.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Percy, posted 07-30-2018 3:16 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 143 of 441 (837362)
07-31-2018 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Faith
07-30-2018 8:54 PM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Faith writes:
What if you just start at the fully formed baby within minutes of birth: why or why not do you regard it as human and would you ever support aborting it at that stage and for what reasons?
How about a month before its due date? Two months? Three months? and so on. Until you find the point at which you definitely don't think of it as human and definitely think abortion is a reasonable solution to what you regard as a difficult situation?
You really don't seem to understand the issue.
What you think is reasonable is totally irrelevant to the question.
It is what the biological mother (primarily) and the father (secondarily and conditionally) and any non-biological mother or father think is reasonable that counts.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Faith, posted 07-30-2018 8:54 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Faith, posted 07-31-2018 7:33 AM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 144 of 441 (837363)
07-31-2018 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by jar
07-31-2018 7:23 AM


Re: Just a few more facts.
I disagree.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by jar, posted 07-31-2018 7:23 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by jar, posted 07-31-2018 7:54 AM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 145 of 441 (837365)
07-31-2018 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Faith
07-31-2018 7:33 AM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Faith writes:
I disagree.
No one doubts that you disagree but at least so far (Thank God) in the US imposing personal morals on other people is Unconstitutional.
That is true of abortion and marriage and sex and beliefs and which god or gods to worship and hopefully it will remain that way even through the current assault on basic human rights being waged by today's so called "conservatives".

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Faith, posted 07-31-2018 7:33 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Faith, posted 07-31-2018 8:17 AM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 146 of 441 (837370)
07-31-2018 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by jar
07-31-2018 7:54 AM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Kiling a human being cannot possibly sanely be construed as a merely personal matter.
And just to counter another of your wacko opinions, forcing Christians to accept gay marriage as legitimate is a violation of freedom of religion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by jar, posted 07-31-2018 7:54 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by jar, posted 07-31-2018 8:33 AM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 147 of 441 (837372)
07-31-2018 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Faith
07-31-2018 8:17 AM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Faith writes:
Kiling a human being cannot possibly sanely be construed as a merely personal matter.
And just to counter another of your wacko opinions, forcing Christians to accept gay marriage as legitimate is a violation of freedom of religion.
And again, you are simply posting falsehoods and unsupported assertions.
It is not established that an unborn child is a human or that in the case of an unborn child that keeping it from being born is killing.
Second, no Christian in the US has ever been forced to accept gay marriage as legitimate.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Faith, posted 07-31-2018 8:17 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Faith, posted 07-31-2018 8:53 AM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 148 of 441 (837376)
07-31-2018 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by jar
07-31-2018 8:33 AM


Re: Just a few more facts.
At least five Christian businesses have been punished for refusing to accept gay marriage as legitimate.
And there is no doubt that the fetus is a living human being by all the evidence I've given.
There's been plenty of support given and I'm not talking "falsehoods." You lie through your teeth about that. You just blather out the false accusations assuming you can get away with it here, and unfortunately you probably can.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by jar, posted 07-31-2018 8:33 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by jar, posted 07-31-2018 9:22 AM Faith has replied
 Message 156 by ringo, posted 07-31-2018 12:25 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 149 of 441 (837378)
07-31-2018 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by Faith
07-31-2018 8:53 AM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Faith writes:
At least five Christian businesses have been punished for refusing to accept gay marriage as legitimate.
No Faith, that is NOT true. Businesses have been punished for not following the law. No one cares whether or not they believe the marriage is legitimate or not.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Faith, posted 07-31-2018 8:53 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Faith, posted 07-31-2018 9:25 AM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 150 of 441 (837380)
07-31-2018 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by jar
07-31-2018 9:22 AM


Re: Just a few more facts.
Why are you such a word twisting sophist? The law is what forces Christians to treat gay marriage as legitimate. Stop twisting things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by jar, posted 07-31-2018 9:22 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by jar, posted 07-31-2018 9:41 AM Faith has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024