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Author Topic:   Evangelical Switch from Pro-choice to Anti-abortion
Percy
Member
Posts: 22389
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 181 of 441 (837455)
08-01-2018 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Tangle
08-01-2018 4:37 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Tangle writes:
Percy writes:
You and Tangle are both refusing to recognize the uncertainties. You're both declaring that there are definite answers to what at heart are unanswerable questions.
No. Absolutely not. I have said that there are uncertainties and unanswerable questions.
About the main area of focus much of what you've said has seemed very definite, such as how there must have been a harm, and that I must know there was a harm, and that I'm denying my feelings.
The big issue is how do you deal with that fact that this is life not science or mathematics. You can’t simply say it’s unanswerable, you have to make a decision. How do you decide?
Assuming you mean a decision about having an abortion, however you decide you still won't have an answer to the question of when life begins. The question of whether to have an abortion and the question of when life begins are two separate questions.
I think you start with your honest feelings...
You're falling into Faith-speak, where if we were all honest with ourselves we'd agree with her.
...and I would label anyone a psychopath that didn’t feel that the deliberate destruction of a human embryo was in some way a harm and something that should be avoided if possible. Can you at least admit that?
Well, I can admit that you've just said something fairly distasteful in calling me a psychopath for not seeing things your way.
When do hills become mountains. When do harbors become seas? When does a fetus become a human being? What should be clear to everyone, but apparently isn't, is that no one knows the answers to these questions because they don't have answers. What such questions tell us is that not all questions have answers
Wrong again. It is abundantly clear that there are no ‘answers’ but you still need to decide. So how do you do it? What do you feel is right.
I said some questions have no answers, not that decisions don't sometimes have to be made in the absence of answers.
I think you are avoiding your feelings. And that you’re avoiding speaking of them.
I think you're failing to see that not everyone is the same. People have feelings, but they're not all the same feelings nor about the same things.
While feelings might help you make a decision, they won't give you any objective answers.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Tangle, posted 08-01-2018 4:37 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Tangle, posted 08-03-2018 4:48 PM Percy has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 182 of 441 (837465)
08-02-2018 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Faith
08-01-2018 12:19 PM


Re: For reference: A twelve-weeks ultrasound
Isn't there pretty clearly a big difference between a brain-dead adult who we know is never going to come back barring a miracle, and a normally developing fetus whose brain is in the process of growing and will certainly become a fully functioning human brain if we don't kill it?
Yes.
The question is - what is the difference specifically, and does it matter?
When we decide to kill a brain-dead adult - it's never just done "because they're brain dead" more investigation is added.
They see if it's a case like a coma where there's a chance they might come out of it.
They look at the family life and see if there are resources available to continue the life artificially for some time.
They look at the possible life the 'brain dead' individual may come into if they recover - will they have permanent loss of motor function in limbs? Will they have a decent chance at a normal life?
All these factors are considered before killing a brain dead adult.
I'm proposing that such factors should also be included when deciding on killing a fetus.
Is it likely the fetus will survive the pregnancy? Likely - but still needs to be taken on a case-by-case basis.
Is it likely the mother will survive the pregnancy? Likely - but still needs to be taken on a case-by-case basis.
What sort of resources are available to continue the development of this fetus? If they are "normally" available - then things look good to continue, if not - this needs to be considered on a case-by-case basis.
What sort of life will this child lead if they are born? Are they being born into a normal, loving family? Are they being born onto a bed of needles where no one will care for this child anyway? Will they have a decent chance at a normal life? Maybe things look good here, maybe not - again, it needs to be considered on a case-by-case basis.
It seems all relevant questions lead to a "should be considered on a case-by-case basis" scenario.
Which is my entire point - all abortions - all the time - should always be considered on a case-by-case basis and any "line" to be applied to all cases is immediately, obviously in error. There are too many complicated issues directly associated with any pregnancy to dumb any of them down to some "single line."
If it was in fact brain-dead we're not talking about normal development.
Yes, we are.
When a sperm and an egg combine - there is no brain. - This is brain dead.
When a baby is born - there is a brain. - This is not brain dead.
Therefore, somewhere along the line the brain develops.
Therefore, somewhere along the line the fetus changes from "brain dead" into "not brain dead."
I don't think that's an easy thing to figure out.
And looking at a twelve-weeks scan that looks like the form of a human tells us nothing about the brain development and how far along it may be from "brain dead" to "not brain dead."
That is always a part of every baby's "normal development."
I don't know when particular functions develop though I suppose the information is available. Do you think you could define the point I'm asking about? What functions would have to be present or absent?
Well, to me - you can't control your limbs by choice or not unless the connections exist for you to control your limbs. Therefore the brain would have to develop to "some level" as well as the brain stem and spinal cord. Before that happens - it doesn't make any sense to look at physical movement as "indication that the baby is human." However - after this point, then I would give much more weight to physical movement indicating "the baby is human."
What else would be part of this?
Maybe development of the cerebrum? This is the large frontal-ish portion of your brain known to be where we feel feelings and make decisions and all the important spiritual-related-stuff we think of as "being human." I think. I'm not a neural doctor, so any corrections to my errors would be welcomed.
Here's a page listing different stages of brain development: Brain Development of Fetus
I can't vouch for it's accuracy - but it's something at least.
This sort of brain development I'm most concerned about seems to start laying the foundation as early as 11 weeks, and not be ready/usable/functional until as late as 19 weeks or so.
But OK you want to define its humanness by brain function or other function rather than appearance or form? So are we still talking about finding the point before which you could advocate aborting it because it isn't human, and after which you couldn't?
I was never talking about "the point I could advocate aborting" based on brain function or appearance or form.
I was only talking about "the point I could advocate the fetus being human."
Again, when the fetus is human is only 1 aspect of a multifaceted whole that all needs to be considered when deciding to abort a baby.
What is the mother's condition?
What is the condition of any primary care-givers?
What is the likelihood of providing a "decent life" for this baby? Rescources, environment situation....
All these things needs to be considered (possibly even more things I can't think of?) when thinking of aborting a baby. Because they are all morally directly connected.
Taking one of those, like - just whether or not the baby itself is human - disregards the "known to be human" lives of everyone else involved - including the baby's human life after they're born! One life is never judged as more important than any other. All lives are equal.
Figuring out when the fetus is "human" doesn't help us draw a line for abortion or not.
However, it does help us figure out how complicated the baby's involvement is for the baby's aspect of the entire moral decision.
It's an important part that should never be ignored. But also not a part that over-shadows all the other parts.
My idea is that because pregnancies are on such a sliding scale - as the baby develops from non-human, into being human... then the portion of the baby's humanness should also be considered on a sliding scale - given much less weight near the beginning of a pregnancy when we know the baby is not human - and much more weight near the end of a pregnancy when we know the baby is fully human.
But all the other aspects still need to be considered as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Faith, posted 08-01-2018 12:19 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Faith, posted 08-02-2018 8:43 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied
 Message 185 by NoNukes, posted 08-02-2018 11:06 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 183 of 441 (837467)
08-02-2018 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by Tangle
08-01-2018 4:37 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Tangle writes:
I think you start with your honest feelings and I would label anyone a psychopath that didn’t feel that the deliberate destruction of a human embryo was in some way a harm and something that should be avoided if possible. Can you at least admit that?
Seems like a very loaded statement.
If by "some way a harm" you include things along the lines of "the way I feel bad when swatting a mosquito" - then I agree with you.
If by "some way a harm" you intend to imply a level of significance around harming another fully intelligent being - then I don't agree with you.
Wrong again. It is abundantly clear that there are no ‘answers’ but you still need to decide. So how do you do it? What do you feel is right.
For what it's worth, I agree that this is true and "what you feel is right" is an excellent starting point. But also a terrible idea if you intend no further attempt at investigation to try and improve your chances at getting the "best possible" answer for the scenario. ("Best possible" may very well still be a decision with very negative consequences.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Tangle, posted 08-01-2018 4:37 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Tangle, posted 08-03-2018 4:58 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 184 of 441 (837477)
08-02-2018 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Stile
08-02-2018 9:32 AM


Re: For reference: A twelve-weeks ultrasound
I'm out of town on a computer that's awkward for me so I won't be able to answer fully until next week some time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Stile, posted 08-02-2018 9:32 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 185 of 441 (837479)
08-02-2018 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Stile
08-02-2018 9:32 AM


Re: For reference: A twelve-weeks ultrasound
When we decide to kill a brain-dead adult - it's never just done "because they're brain dead" more investigation is added.
If brain death is established, nothing else is necessary.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Stile, posted 08-02-2018 9:32 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Stile, posted 08-03-2018 8:10 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 186 of 441 (837485)
08-03-2018 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by NoNukes
08-02-2018 11:06 PM


Re: For reference: A twelve-weeks ultrasound
NoNukes writes:
If brain death is established, nothing else is necessary.
Do you happen to know the term for the sort of idea I'm describing, then?
When someone's on life-support - and the family is deciding to keep them on or off - I'm assuming the doctor has already decided that the "medically-measured life" is now gone and leaves it to the family to decide when they are ready to remove life-support.
That is, if the medical team thinks the person is "still alive" - I don't think the family ever really gets a choice to 'remove life-support' or not, do they?
Does such a state have another name?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by NoNukes, posted 08-02-2018 11:06 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by NoNukes, posted 08-03-2018 4:53 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 187 of 441 (837491)
08-03-2018 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Percy
08-01-2018 8:33 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Percy writes:
About the main area of focus much of what you've said has seemed very definite, such as how there must have been a harm, and that I must know there was a harm, and that I'm denying my feelings.
Of course there's a harm! We're deliberately ending a potential human life. How can there not be a harm? If there was no harm we would not be having this conversation, we wouldn't have very strict laws about it and those undergoing abortions would never be troubled by them.
Assuming you mean a decision about having an abortion, however you decide you still won't have an answer to the question of when life begins.
We can't ever know that, we can only point to critical moments in the development cycle and take semi-arbritrary decisions. Meanwhile, we still need to know whether what we are doing is right or wrong or a justifiable wrong.
The question of whether to have an abortion and the question of when life begins are two separate questions.
Sure, but despite that we still need public policy on the issue.
You're falling into Faith-speak, where if we were all honest with ourselves we'd agree with her.
Now you're just avoiding again
Well, I can admit that you've just said something fairly distasteful in calling me a psychopath for not seeing things your way.
And again. I said that I felt that the deliberate destruction of a human embryo was in some way a harm and something that should be avoided if possible.
That seems a very obvious statement to me, what is it that you find you can't agree with and why?
I said some questions have no answers, not that decisions don't sometimes have to be made in the absence of answers.
And I'm asking how those decisions are made.
I think you're failing to see that not everyone is the same. People have feelings, but they're not all the same feelings nor about the same things.
I think in some situations the majority of people feel the same about things and I believe abortion is one of them. Even the supporters - of which I'm one - regard it as a necessary evil. It's not a neutral thing is it?
While feelings might help you make a decision, they won't give you any objective answers.
er, right. But this if human life we're talking about with all its messiness, not, as I say, mathematics and moral decisions are based on feelings. How the majority feel, tends to give us our answers

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Percy, posted 08-01-2018 8:33 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Percy, posted 08-04-2018 12:03 PM Tangle has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 188 of 441 (837492)
08-03-2018 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Stile
08-03-2018 8:10 AM


Re: For reference: A twelve-weeks ultrasound
Do you happen to know the term for the sort of idea I'm describing, then?
Possibly you are referring to a vegetative state. Or possibly one of those situations where the patient has some involuntary functions but some brain damage such that the person cannot do any voluntary motions. I don't know the terminology.
But a brain dead person is considered dead.
That is, if the medical team thinks the person is "still alive" - I don't think the family ever really gets a choice to 'remove life-support' or not, do they?
Yes, they do get that choice. I am the guardian for a family member in that situation.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Stile, posted 08-03-2018 8:10 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 189 of 441 (837493)
08-03-2018 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Stile
08-02-2018 9:45 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
stile writes:
If by "some way a harm" you include things along the lines of "the way I feel bad when swatting a mosquito" - then I agree with you.
If by "some way a harm" you intend to imply a level of significance around harming another fully intelligent being - then I don't agree with you.
Well thanks for that, I agree. There is a continuum of harm here with the kind of 'abortion' created by the IUD to the murder of a new born. But it's harm all the way down.
For what it's worth, I agree that this is true and "what you feel is right" is an excellent starting point. But also a terrible idea if you intend no further attempt at investigation to try and improve your chances at getting the "best possible" answer for the scenario. ("Best possible" may very well still be a decision with very negative consequences.)
Fine, but just for the record, I'm obviously not suggesting we stop researching. However, the result of medical science will be a requirement for earlier and earlier abortions as we work out how to keep early foetuses alive at earlier stages.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Stile, posted 08-02-2018 9:45 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by ringo, posted 08-03-2018 5:06 PM Tangle has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 190 of 441 (837494)
08-03-2018 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Tangle
08-03-2018 4:58 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Tangle writes:
There is a continuum of harm here with the kind of 'abortion' created by the IUD to the murder of a new born. But it's harm all the way down.
But it's a continuum with a finite beginning, isn't it? The real question is when does it begin to be harm? At birth? In the second trimester? At conception? When the grandmother met the grandfather?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Tangle, posted 08-03-2018 4:58 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Tangle, posted 08-04-2018 2:43 AM ringo has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 191 of 441 (837503)
08-04-2018 2:43 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by ringo
08-03-2018 5:06 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
ringo writes:
But it's a continuum with a finite beginning, isn't it? The real question is when does it begin to be harm? At birth? In the second trimester? At conception? When the grandmother met the grandfather?
The only definitive beginning is conception. The IUD prevents the fertilised egg implanting so the harm starts there. But few people believe that that harm is significant.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by ringo, posted 08-03-2018 5:06 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by ringo, posted 08-04-2018 11:40 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 194 by NoNukes, posted 08-04-2018 12:11 PM Tangle has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 192 of 441 (837516)
08-04-2018 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by Tangle
08-04-2018 2:43 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Tangle writes:
But few people believe that that harm is significant.
Exactly. So "harm" is a term that doesn't have much meaning. One woman might think it's "harm" and another woman in the same situation might not think it's harm.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Tangle, posted 08-04-2018 2:43 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Tangle, posted 08-04-2018 1:35 PM ringo has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22389
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 193 of 441 (837517)
08-04-2018 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Tangle
08-03-2018 4:48 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Tangle writes:
Percy writes:
About the main area of focus much of what you've said has seemed very definite, such as how there must have been a harm, and that I must know there was a harm, and that I'm denying my feelings.
Of course there's a harm!
Is there?
We're deliberately ending a potential human life.
Are we?
How can there not be a harm?
How can you know there *is* harm?
If there was no harm we would not be having this conversation,...
If you didn't *think* there was harm we wouldn't be having this conversation. Are you correct about there being harm or not? I don't know.
...we wouldn't have very strict laws about it and those undergoing abortions would never be troubled by them.
You're talking about feelings and laws based upon feelings. It's subjective. Different people will feel differently.
Assuming you mean a decision about having an abortion, however you decide you still won't have an answer to the question of when life begins.
We can't ever know that, we can only point to critical moments in the development cycle and take semi-arbritrary decisions. Meanwhile, we still need to know whether what we are doing is right or wrong or a justifiable wrong.
Right and wrong moral positions aren't objective. Different people will feel differently.
The question of whether to have an abortion and the question of when life begins are two separate questions.
Sure, but despite that we still need public policy on the issue.
Why? Because you think it's a harm?
You're falling into Faith-speak, where if we were all honest with ourselves we'd agree with her.
Now you're just avoiding again
I didn't at all avoid your impugning of my integrity.
Well, I can admit that you've just said something fairly distasteful in calling me a psychopath for not seeing things your way.
And again. I said that I felt that the deliberate destruction of a human embryo was in some way a harm and something that should be avoided if possible.
Again you said, "I would label anyone a psychopath that didn’t feel that the deliberate destruction of a human embryo was in some way a harm." I think you've lost your emotional control on this issue.
That seems a very obvious statement to me, what is it that you find you can't agree with and why?
Why is it obvious, especially since the only support you provide is emotional statements.
I said some questions have no answers, not that decisions don't sometimes have to be made in the absence of answers.
And I'm asking how those decisions are made.
By leaving them as personal decisions.
I think you're failing to see that not everyone is the same. People have feelings, but they're not all the same feelings nor about the same things.
I think in some situations the majority of people feel the same about things and I believe abortion is one of them. Even the supporters - of which I'm one - regard it as a necessary evil. It's not a neutral thing is it?
And that's the way you feel about it. Not everyone feels the same way. Persuasion through emotive expression isn't terribly convincing.
While feelings might help you make a decision, they won't give you any objective answers.
er, right. But this if human life we're talking about with all its messiness, not, as I say, mathematics and moral decisions are based on feelings.
Mathematics and moral decisions are based on feelings? Really? Well, you're half right.
How the majority feel, tends to give us our answers
The majority of the South felt slavery rightfully moral. That does tell us things, but not about how rightfully moral slavery was.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Tangle, posted 08-03-2018 4:48 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by NoNukes, posted 08-04-2018 12:13 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 197 by Tangle, posted 08-04-2018 2:03 PM Percy has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 194 of 441 (837519)
08-04-2018 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Tangle
08-04-2018 2:43 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
The only definitive beginning is conception.
That is a beginning, yes. But is it the point a which the fertilized egg is a human being? We kill non-human plants and animals all of the time. We don't consider sterilizing medical instruments a "harm" even if millions of instances single-celled life are ended. We don't consider excising a cancerous tutor to be harm.
Given that, I suggest that your definitive beginning point is just a convenient point to discuss because you don't have any better information. But that is not good enough. It's just a way of deciding the debate in the way you want it decided.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Tangle, posted 08-04-2018 2:43 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Tangle, posted 08-04-2018 5:41 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 195 of 441 (837520)
08-04-2018 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Percy
08-04-2018 12:03 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
The majority of the South felt slavery rightfully moral. That does tell us things, but not about how rightfully moral slavery was.
Yikes.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Percy, posted 08-04-2018 12:03 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
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