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Author Topic:   Evangelical Switch from Pro-choice to Anti-abortion
Stile
Member
Posts: 3236
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 271 of 441 (837694)
08-07-2018 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Tangle
08-07-2018 12:10 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Tangle writes:

They decide that having an unplanned child right now would be inconvenient for whatever reason.

That sounds like a dumbing down of the process involved to a silly level.

I don't think any woman choosing to go through with an abortion would describe the un-wanted child as being "inconvenient" for them.
Phrases like "inability to provide proper care for another human being" don't sound like something is merely "inconvenient."

I'm not saying anything about complications such as rape, medical emergencies or foetuses found to be with life damaging deformities. I'm trying to deal only with elective abortion and what people feel about it.

Fully agreed.
And the complications of "being human" go far beyond those of rape, medical emergencies or life-damaging deformities. To think that everything else is "just fine" is again missing all the serious and important complications of "being human."

Such situations still demand that the following all be reviewed, in depth:

The baby's human-ness.
The woman's health.
Any care-giver's health.
Any care-giver's ability to provide resources for the baby.
Expectations for the baby to have a decent life.

"Health" here is not merely in a can-physically-have-a-baby or not sort of sense.
It is a catch-all word to include personal well-being.

It includes the physical changes (hormone and body related) that the pregnant woman will have to go through - even if she's medically expected "not to die" from having the baby. These are not light changes and a medical procedure to avoid them can hardly be called "elective" in any rational sense of the term.

It includes the woman's (and care-giver's) mental state, and their desire to have a baby.
Why would anyone want a baby to be brought into a family that doesn't want a baby? - That's inhumane.

Deciding on things like 'what you want' vs. 'unplanned circumstances' where inhumane ideas are at stake can hardly be dumbed down to words like "inconvenient."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2018 12:10 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2018 2:45 PM Stile has responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1247
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 272 of 441 (837696)
08-07-2018 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by ringo
08-07-2018 1:03 PM


I think the issue might have to do with allowing a premature birth.
quote:

That's what I'm saying to you: Neither you nor anybody else can just declare that there's no difference. Neither you nor anybody else can claim that there's a particular time when it becomes "wrong".

Think of a pregnancy where the baby aborts, i.e. a miscarriage.

The issue here seems to be having a doctor simply remove the baby prematurely, as opposed to using surgical tools to dismember it.

Meaning.

Just let the baby be gently pulled out (by the doctor of course) at 30 weeks, then let an incubator be used.

(Ron Paul recounted something disturbing he - by chance - saw during medical school, by telling about how he accidently wandered into a room where he encountered a baby that had just been removed in a surgical abortion and it was crying, but he was told to let it alone as it was just aborted and it would die, and he quickly left the room he wandered into to get to his proper destination)

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by ringo, posted 08-07-2018 1:03 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by Faith, posted 08-07-2018 3:01 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded
 Message 299 by ringo, posted 08-08-2018 12:06 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6178
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 273 of 441 (837698)
08-07-2018 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by ringo
08-07-2018 1:03 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Ringo writes:

You don't seem to understand the "harm" angle.

I do.

That's what I'm saying to you: Neither you nor anybody else can just declare that there's no difference.

I'm claiming opposite. I'm waiting for Jar to explain that there is a difference and why.

Neither you nor anybody else can claim that there's a particular time when it becomes "wrong".

Yes I can and yes 'they' can. And, of course, the law already does.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by ringo, posted 08-07-2018 1:03 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by ringo, posted 08-08-2018 12:09 PM Tangle has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 274 of 441 (837700)
08-07-2018 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by Tangle
08-07-2018 12:46 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Tangle writes:

Given your refusal to answer my question I'm going to take an enormous leap and say that you do not think it's right to kill a new born baby. And indeed, that you might even call it murder, like the law does.

So now I'd like to know what it is about a new born that is so different to the same baby 1/1000 of a second earlier such that the mother can kill it with impunity. If you wish to play semantics, I"m happy to use the phrase 'abort it with impunity'.

I have answered your questions and answered them repeatedly. You really need to learn how to read.

So I will once again post my answer.

And as I have repeatedly pointed out, that has nothing to do with the topic and yet again, 1/1000 or 1/100 or 1/10 or 1 or 10 or 100 or 1000 seconds after a birth I still feel such decisions need to be made by the mother, possibly the father, and the medical staff involved in that particular instance; my opinion is irrelevant, and should be irrelevant, to the issue.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2018 12:46 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2018 2:50 PM jar has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6178
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 275 of 441 (837701)
08-07-2018 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by Stile
08-07-2018 1:04 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Stile writes:

That sounds like a dumbing down of the process involved to a silly level.

I don't think any woman choosing to go through with an abortion would describe the un-wanted child as being "inconvenient" for them.

Probably not, but that's the outcome. “I can't have this baby, I need to go to colledge/persue my career/find the right guy/I've already got enough kids etc

Phrases like "inability to provide proper care for another human being" don't sound like something is merely "inconvenient."

And I'm not claiming all abortions are simply inconvenieces, just a large number of them are.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Stile, posted 08-07-2018 1:04 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Stile, posted 08-07-2018 3:33 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6178
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 276 of 441 (837702)
08-07-2018 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by jar
08-07-2018 2:44 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Jar writes:

I have answered your questions and answered them repeatedly

You have repeatedly avoided answering a direct question that is critical to the discussion. So I guess we're not going to get any futher.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by jar, posted 08-07-2018 2:44 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by jar, posted 08-07-2018 2:52 PM Tangle has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 277 of 441 (837703)
08-07-2018 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by Tangle
08-07-2018 2:50 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Tangle writes:

You have repeatedly avoided answering a direct question that is critical to the discussion.

Once again you seem to me simply misrepresenting what I have said, but I do agree that until you learn to read we will not be able to get any further.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2018 2:50 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2018 3:35 PM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29820
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 278 of 441 (837704)
08-07-2018 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by LamarkNewAge
08-07-2018 1:28 PM


Re: I think the issue might have to do with allowing a premature birth.
(Ron Paul recounted something disturbing he - by chance - saw during medical school, by telling about how he accidently wandered into a room where he encountered a baby that had just been removed in a surgical abortion and it was crying, but he was told to let it alone as it was just aborted and it would die, and he quickly left the room he wandered into to get to his proper destination)

I hope this is unusual but I'm afraid to find out it is probably not. This is out and out absolutely unequivocally murder it seems to me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-07-2018 1:28 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3236
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


(2)
Message 279 of 441 (837707)
08-07-2018 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by Tangle
08-07-2018 2:45 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Tangle writes:

And I'm not claiming all abortions are simply inconveniences, just a large number of them are.

I don't think that's true either.

I would even go so far as to say possibly even none are.
Can you dig up one example even? - Where a woman had an abortion and her reason was that the baby was "simply an inconvenience?"

I don't think the scenario you seem to be describing exists.

“I can't have this baby, I need to go to college/pursue my career/find the right guy/I've already got enough kids etc

I don't see how any of those can intellectually-honestly be reduced to a simple inconvenience when weighing them in the context of an abortion vs. an unplanned pregnancy. You do understand how having a child is life-changing, right? If so, the decision is between changing your entire life vs. discarding a "simple inconvenience?" It doesn't even make sense. It can't even logically be the two choices.

An example of a simple inconvenience is forgetting your phone and having to turn back to go home and pick it up again.

The basic idea is that you can correct the mistake and go back to your "normal life" in a short period of time and quickly forget the whole affair.

I really do suggest you attempt to find any woman who's ever had an abortion who:

-barely remembers she's had an abortion in the past
-hardly ever thinks about 'what would have been' if she chose otherwise
-only spent a small amount of time going over the decision before it was made
-the process of problem-happened/identified-solution/corrected-problem took less than an hour

Because if any of those aren't true, it's pretty much 'more than an inconvenience' by definition.

Again, if you want to get to the truth of the matter - what's wrong with acknowledging that having an abortion is not an easy decision to make one way or the other?
Why can't we admit that even women who choose to have an abortion will be living a life they didn't intend on anyway?

If someone had an abortion, and they then have to even just deal with people who think someone-who-had-an-abortion-without-medical-cause did it because they thought a baby was "an inconvenience..." that in and of itself means it's more than just an inconvenience.
Nobody judges the lives of those who forget their phone one day and had to go back home to pick it up.

The existence of the ongoing back-and-forth in this very thread even implies it's always going to be more than an inconvenience.
Who has a 270+ post thread about the morality behind forgetting a phone at home?

To deny these factors is to deny the reality of an abortion:
-that more than just "the baby surviving the pregnancy" is involved
-that the situation is very complicated and a lot of different factors need to be taken into account
-that every pregnancy-and-possible-abortion is different and needs to be judged/monitored on it's own taking into account the specific context for that situation


This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2018 2:45 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2018 3:48 PM Stile has responded
 Message 285 by Faith, posted 08-07-2018 4:15 PM Stile has responded
 Message 290 by Percy, posted 08-08-2018 8:04 AM Stile has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6178
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 280 of 441 (837708)
08-07-2018 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by jar
08-07-2018 2:52 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Jar writes:

Once again you seem to me simply misrepresenting what I have said, but I do agree that until you learn to read we will not be able to get any further.

Just a reminder, I've asked you what the difference is between a new born baby and one just before birth that allows one to be killed at the whim of the mother but not the other. (Feel free to substitute 'abort' for kill as appropriate for you.)

Get back to me when you feel like answering.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by jar, posted 08-07-2018 2:52 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by jar, posted 08-07-2018 3:38 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11300
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 281 of 441 (837709)
08-07-2018 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by Tangle
08-07-2018 11:59 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Perhaps you have to rephrase your question.
tangle writes:

Neither you nor I know when life begins and we never will. But that is irrelevant because we have to decide anyway. (We being society). The question is about whether a woman should be allowed to electively abort her fetus or not. And if so, when.

So the question to ask jar is this:
If there was a law and/or decision that was presented to society via a question on a ballot regarding whether or not there should be a concise rule regarding when the right to abort a fetus stops, would you agree that it was a necessary law and social responsibility or would you vote against making such a law?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2018 11:59 AM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by jar, posted 08-07-2018 4:12 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 282 of 441 (837710)
08-07-2018 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Tangle
08-07-2018 3:35 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Tangle writes:

Just a reminder, I've asked you what the difference is between a new born baby and one just before birth that allows one to be killed at the whim of the mother but not the other. (Feel free to substitute 'abort' for kill as appropriate for you.)

And I have answered those questions and will repeat the answers for you yet again.

And as I have repeatedly pointed out, that has nothing to do with the topic and yet again, 1/1000 or 1/100 or 1/10 or 1 or 10 or 100 or 1000 seconds after a birth I still feel such decisions need to be made by the mother, possibly the father, and the medical staff involved in that particular instance; my opinion is irrelevant, and should be irrelevant, to the issue.

Please stop misrepresenting what I say or think.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2018 3:35 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6178
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 283 of 441 (837712)
08-07-2018 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by Stile
08-07-2018 3:33 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Stile writes:

I don't think that's true either.

I would even go so far as to say possibly even none are.
Can you dig up one example even? - Where a woman had an abortion and her reason was that the baby was "simply an inconvenience?"

“Most respondents to a survey of abortion patients in 1987 said that more than one factor had contributed to their decision to have an abortion; the mean number of reasons was nearly four. Three-quarters said that having a baby would interfere with work, school or other responsibilities, about two-thirds said they could not afford to have a child and half said they did not want to be a single parent or had relationship problems. A multivariate analysis showed young teenagers to be 32 percent more likely than women 18 or over to say they were not mature enough to raise a child and 19 percent more likely to say their parents wanted them to have an abortion. Unmarried women were 17 percent more likely than currently married women to choose abortion to prevent others from knowing they had had sex or became pregnant. “

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3243347

Or

Table 3
Percentage of women citing each reason for seeking an abortion, various countries and years

Sweden, 2009 United States, 2004 United States, 2008–2010
Wants to postpone childbearing – 27 –
Wants no (more) children 21 47 –
Not financially prepared 32 56 40
Interferes with future opportunities (education, work) – 54 20
Partner-related 32 55 31
Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy 1 25 –
Risk to maternal health 8 11 –
Risk to fetal health 1 11 –
Risk to maternal/fetal health – – 12
Not the right time for a baby 60 – 36
Need to focus on other children – – 29
Not emotionally or mentally prepared – – 19
Want a better life for the baby than she could provide – – 12
Not independent or mature enough for a baby – – 7
Influences from family or friends – – 5
Don’t want a baby or place baby for adoption – – 4
Other 1 25 1
N 773 1160 954

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5957082/

You can quibble about the definition of 'inconvenient' now if you like but I'm not joining in. Many/most of reason above are the reasons I've described are inconveniences.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Stile, posted 08-07-2018 3:33 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by Stile, posted 08-08-2018 9:51 AM Tangle has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 284 of 441 (837713)
08-07-2018 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by Phat
08-07-2018 3:36 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Phat writes:

If there was a law and/or decision that was presented to society via a question on a ballot regarding whether or not there should be a concise rule regarding when the right to abort a fetus stops, would you agree that it was a necessary law and social responsibility or would you vote against making such a law?

"Would I agree that it was a necessary law?" Unless I had the full text and exact wording of the law there is no way I could even guess if it was a necessary law.

"Would I vote against making such a law?" Unless I had the full text and exact wording of the proposed law there is no way I could even guess if if I would vote against such a law.

BUT... again, what I think personally is and should be irrelevant to the question of abortion.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Phat, posted 08-07-2018 3:36 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by Phat, posted 08-07-2018 4:22 PM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29820
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 285 of 441 (837714)
08-07-2018 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by Stile
08-07-2018 3:33 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Can you dig up one example even? - Where a woman had an abortion and her reason was that the baby was "simply an inconvenience?"

Someone I know personally, married to one man for forty years, told me she'd had four abortions because children would interfere with their lifestyle. I had the impression it was more her husband's desire than her own but that wasn't stated. No idea how representative they may be.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Stile, posted 08-07-2018 3:33 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by NoNukes, posted 08-07-2018 5:24 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 295 by Stile, posted 08-08-2018 10:01 AM Faith has responded

    
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