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Author Topic:   Evangelical Switch from Pro-choice to Anti-abortion
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5973
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 316 of 441 (837765)
08-08-2018 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by ooh-child
08-08-2018 4:46 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
ooh-child writes:

If you could show me medical literature describing this "irritating the womb lining and preventing implantation of a ferilised (sic) egg" scenario I'd be enlightened.

If you need more than this, I suggest you do the search.

How does an IUD prevent pregnancy?

Both types of IUDs work primarily by preventing sperm from fertilizing an egg. The copper IUD releases copper into the uterus, which works as a spermicide. The others release a form of the hormone progestin into the uterus. The progestin thickens the cervical mucus so that sperm can't reach the egg. In some women, progestin may also prevent ovulation.

In the unlikely event that an egg does get fertilized and survives, both types of IUD cause inflammation in the uterus that makes it harder for the egg to implant there. Hormonal IUDs also cause thinning of the uterine lining, making implantation more difficult.

https://www.babycenter.com/0_intrauterine-device-iud_3564.bc


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by ooh-child, posted 08-08-2018 4:46 PM ooh-child has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 317 by ooh-child, posted 08-08-2018 5:21 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 321 by Percy, posted 08-08-2018 8:07 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
ooh-child
Member
Posts: 187
Joined: 04-10-2009


(1)
Message 317 of 441 (837766)
08-08-2018 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by Tangle
08-08-2018 5:00 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Thanks so much for the link, but I did ask for medical literature, not a for-profit website. In any case, it really proves more my point: an IUD isn't an abortifacient since later in the page it is explained that an IUD can be successfully removed if the patient becomes pregnant while using an IUD.

Next, I'll just put this out there:

To understand why scientists believe that the IUD, Plan B and Ella are not abortifacients, it is important first to understand the biology of conception. In order for a woman to become pregnant after sexual intercourse, her ovaries must release an egg (ovulation). Sperm can remain viable inside her reproductive tract for five days. Therefore, if intercourse takes place up to five days before ovulation or within two days after, both sperm and egg are viable and the egg cell can be fertilized.

Now, just because an egg is fertilized doesn't necessarily mean that it will develop into an embryo. For that to happen, the fertilized egg must be implanted into the endometrium that lines the uterus. Implantation happens seven days after fertilization, if it happens at all. Scientists estimate that, at a minimum, two-thirds of fertilized eggs fail to implant.

Now, back to contraception. When church officials argue that the IUD could be an abortifacient, they are relying on research from the 1970s that indicated that the IUD could affect an embryo's ability to implant. Decades of research since has demonstrated that the IUD actually works much earlier in the reproductive process than once thought. It does not destroy an implanted embryo. Approximately one in 100 women using the IUD get pregnant.

https://www.ncronline.org/...-abortifacient-and-what-it-isnt

Edited by ooh-child, : Cut off last paragraph


This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by Tangle, posted 08-08-2018 5:00 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by Tangle, posted 08-08-2018 5:44 PM ooh-child has not yet responded
 Message 322 by Percy, posted 08-08-2018 8:18 PM ooh-child has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30717
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 318 of 441 (837767)
08-08-2018 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by Tangle
08-08-2018 12:30 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Tangle writes:

Sure there is, if you drink drive you'll lose your licence. If you steal you'll be punished. If you murder you'll go to jail.

Sometimes. Sometimes not.

There is nothing absolute about any of those.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by Tangle, posted 08-08-2018 12:30 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5973
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 319 of 441 (837768)
08-08-2018 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by ooh-child
08-08-2018 5:21 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Ooh-child writes:

Thanks so much for the link, but I did ask for medical literature, not a for-profit website.

That's really tough on you, so sorry. But I'm betting you can use google too.

In any case, it really proves more my point: an IUD isn't an abortifacient since later in the page it is explained that an IUD can be successfully removed if the patient becomes pregnant while using an IUD.

ffs. So what? The IUD prevents both fertilisation and implantation. But if it fails it can be removed. It's not a material part of the argument what an IUD does or does not do. If a modern, perfect IUD now only prevents conception, great, that's one less harm in the world.

Next, I'll just put this out there:

Hey, you can use google!


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by ooh-child, posted 08-08-2018 5:21 PM ooh-child has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17584
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


(2)
Message 320 of 441 (837769)
08-08-2018 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 312 by Tangle
08-08-2018 4:05 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Tangle writes:

Conception is a definitive point and is the start of potential human life. As such there is a harm involved in interfering with its development. That harm increases from the negligible to the most extreme.

I would say that conception is a well defined point on the way to a new human being. The rest of what you say is just something you believe.

I believe abortion is a wrong full stop.

Ah, that you believe this makes this discussion make more sense.

But it is a justifiable wrong up to a point.

You know it's wrong but justify it? I think you may be conflicted.

It's always a harm but the harm is on a continuum from almost none - the IUD - to murder. - killing a baby just before birth.

Yes, I understand you feel this way.

So you rationalize that though it's a harm (a wrong) it's one we feel guilty about, and as long as we feel guilty we can keep doing it.

Close. But not quite correct. It's a wrong but it's a necessary wrong that we have to live with. But we should always know that there's a harm here.

If this is what you believe then that's fine, but you should speak for yourself instead of saying "we."

Yes, I know it's a possibility you have difficulty entertaining. There's a familiar feel to this, to be discussing with someone who simply declares things so while calling other people's inquiries insane.

And yet you still can't explain why a baby is not alive a moment before birth but alive a moment after. Why not?

A better question is why you're asking why I can't explain it just before quoting the sentence where I explained it. And how did you manage to misstate what I think a mere quarter inch from where you quoted me saying what I think?

Because after birth it is a living human being. Before birth I don't know.

Exactly what information are you lacking?

When does life begin?

You know that if the baby is removed from the woman it will be what you call 'alive'. You seem to know what alive is but not what 'dead' is. It's binary you know.

I think you're confusing two different senses of the word alive. The fetus is not dead before birth. The question is whether it's a living human being before birth, and if so, when did it become a living human being?

There's a significant problem with this.

Yeh, it's called the human condition.

No no, I was referring to your claim that the "collective, majority opinion" makes something okay. It doesn't make it okay.

Part of it lies outside the scope of this discussion, so as briefly as possible, the laws of a region don't necessarily reflect "collective, majority opinion." If you're watching the primaries here in the US then you understand that, and if you're not then I'll just say that only a small and usually more extreme subset of voters tend to vote in primaries, and it isn't an unfrequent occurrence for the candidates in the main election to represent the fringe elements of their respective parties. This is the choice Republican voters faced with Trump in 2016 - Trump didn't represent anything resembling the mainstream of the party, but the only alternative was a Democrat, so most voted for Trump.

I think you experience the same thing on your side of the pond when coalition governments become necessary and small parties have a disproportionate sway over governance.

Of course, it's an imperfect system. but it's what we've got until we improve it.

Yes, it's what we've got, and it means our laws don't consistently represent the "collective, majority opinion," which means it doesn't make something okay.

By and large we get the will of the people and our institutions reflect our feelings. Hence Texas, hence guns. Hence Sweden publishes it's citizen's tax returns but your president doesn't. The American culture is what it is - generally right wing, strangely religious and conservative religious at that, fearing liberalism still dreaming of the frontier and individualism. Not all want that but just at the moment that's where you are and your wackier laws reflect it.

Tell me about it.

These issues with representative government mean that our laws are only inconsistently representative of the "collective, majority opinion." Some pretty horrible things have been done by supposedly representative governments that, by the laws they instituted, were perfectly legal.

Of course, but I've lost your plot.

I was explaining why, contrary to your claim, our laws do not necessarily represent the "collective, majority opinion," and so the fact that a law has been enacted doesn't make something okay. It might represent the best we can do, but that doesn't make it okay. You think abortion is not okay, and if you're right then laws enacted by our government do not make it okay.

AbE: I alluded to this in an earlier message, but it bears repeating. Even if our government did successfully represent the "collective, majority opinion," that doesn't make okay anything it makes legal. Governments don't have that kind of power.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : AbE.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by Tangle, posted 08-08-2018 4:05 PM Tangle has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17584
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 321 of 441 (837770)
08-08-2018 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by Tangle
08-08-2018 5:00 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Tangle writes:

How does an IUD prevent pregnancy?

Both types of IUDs work primarily by preventing sperm from fertilizing an egg. The copper IUD releases copper into the uterus, which works as a spermicide. The others release a form of the hormone progestin into the uterus. The progestin thickens the cervical mucus so that sperm can't reach the egg. In some women, progestin may also prevent ovulation.

How do you explain this from your Message 217:

Tangle in Message 217 writes:

No. The IUD works by preventing the fertised egg implanting. It's a very, very early abortion.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by Tangle, posted 08-08-2018 5:00 PM Tangle has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17584
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 322 of 441 (837771)
08-08-2018 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by ooh-child
08-08-2018 5:21 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
When I saw your discussion with Tangle about IUDs I went to Wikipedia and read up. I couldn't believe it was saying that both types of IUD prevent fertilization, because I was taught they prevented implantation back in my 1969 sex ed class. This explains it:

ooh-child quoting from her source writes:

Now, back to contraception. When church officials argue that the IUD could be an abortifacient, they are relying on research from the 1970s that indicated that the IUD could affect an embryo's ability to implant.

This excerpt refers to research from the 1970s, so the timeframe doesn't line up exactly, but I still think that explains it. Thanks for posting that.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Fix gender reference.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by ooh-child, posted 08-08-2018 5:21 PM ooh-child has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by ooh-child, posted 08-09-2018 11:00 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
ooh-child
Member
Posts: 187
Joined: 04-10-2009


Message 323 of 441 (837794)
08-09-2018 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by Percy
08-08-2018 8:18 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
You're welcome, it's why I thought that passage (from a religiously oriented site) would be helpful.

Oh, and I'm female.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by Percy, posted 08-08-2018 8:18 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29184
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 324 of 441 (837799)
08-09-2018 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Stile
08-08-2018 10:01 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Stile writes:

Faith writes:

Someone I know personally, married to one man for forty years, told me she'd had four abortions because children would interfere with their lifestyle. I had the impression it was more her husband's desire than her own but that wasn't stated. No idea how representative they may be.

How does any of this show that this person considered the children an inconvenience?
It seems to me she's dealing with reality.
She seems to understand that having a child is a 20+ year, life-changing commitment.
She can have more time to spend with her husband, her friends, her social life, her hobbies.
Or she can have much less time and money for those things and spend most of her time taking care of a child or the next 20+ years.
Yeah, you can say the baby is "inconvenient" in the sense that being jailed for a crime you didn't commit is also "inconvenient."

But as usual we have the problem of whether abortion is ending a human life or not. Are you saying that even if it IS ending a human life it is fine to abort it for the reasons you give, more time for husband, friends, social life, hobbies and so on? Or does your valuing those things over having children depend on being convinced that abortion is NOT ending a human life?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Stile, posted 08-08-2018 10:01 AM Stile has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by jar, posted 08-09-2018 2:28 PM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30717
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


(2)
Message 325 of 441 (837803)
08-09-2018 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by Faith
08-09-2018 12:36 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Faith writes:

Are you saying that even if it IS ending a human life it is fine to abort it for the reasons you give, more time for husband, friends, social life, hobbies and so on?

What we are saying is that it is irrelevant whether or not we think having an abortion is justified for the reasons given; what is relevant is whether the mother, possibly the father, and the medical staff that are dealing with that particular instance think it is justified.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by Faith, posted 08-09-2018 12:36 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by Faith, posted 08-09-2018 2:41 PM jar has responded
 Message 333 by Tangle, posted 08-09-2018 4:51 PM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29184
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 326 of 441 (837808)
08-09-2018 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 325 by jar
08-09-2018 2:28 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Oh right, what can I be thinking? Murder has always been an elective procedure in civilized nations.

(This is based on "medical staff" not really being medically motivated but more like pro abortion activists.)

But that's YOUR opinion, I haven't heard Stile say anything that ridiculous yet.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by jar, posted 08-09-2018 2:28 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 327 by ringo, posted 08-09-2018 2:48 PM Faith has responded
 Message 331 by jar, posted 08-09-2018 3:39 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 14920
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 327 of 441 (837811)
08-09-2018 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by Faith
08-09-2018 2:41 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Faith writes:

Murder has always been an elective procedure in civilized nations.


I thought you agreed to stop calling it murder.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by Faith, posted 08-09-2018 2:41 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by Faith, posted 08-09-2018 2:49 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29184
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 328 of 441 (837812)
08-09-2018 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 327 by ringo
08-09-2018 2:48 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Sometimes it is murder and needs to be called murder to wake some people up.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by ringo, posted 08-09-2018 2:48 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 329 by ringo, posted 08-09-2018 2:56 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 14920
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 329 of 441 (837814)
08-09-2018 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 328 by Faith
08-09-2018 2:49 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Faith writes:

Sometimes it is murder and needs to be called murder to wake some people up.


So "sometimes" you're in favour of executing or imprisoning the woman.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by Faith, posted 08-09-2018 2:49 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by Faith, posted 08-09-2018 3:21 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29184
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 330 of 441 (837815)
08-09-2018 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 329 by ringo
08-09-2018 2:56 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Not interested in the semantics of the issue.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 329 by ringo, posted 08-09-2018 2:56 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 332 by ringo, posted 08-09-2018 3:40 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
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