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Author Topic:   Evangelical Switch from Pro-choice to Anti-abortion
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 361 of 441 (837987)
08-11-2018 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 359 by Tangle
08-11-2018 4:53 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
And sophomoric trivialities are still sophomoric trivialities that still do not answer the question of why a law related to abortion is needed.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by Tangle, posted 08-11-2018 4:53 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6244
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 362 of 441 (837988)
08-11-2018 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by NoNukes
08-11-2018 3:47 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
NoNukes writes:

No, Tangle. 'We' don't have to decide.

Not interfering is also a decision.

The people involved have to decide for themselves with some possible input or advice from others.

Well that's a decision you've just made.

What I expressed about the life of the unborn is my opinion and not a fact even if you agree with me.

And it coincides with the way the law sees it. Just lucky I guess.

You are just as authoritarian as any fundamentalist.

Then given that we agree, that makes you the same I guess. Weird.

It does not matter if your opinions are not religious. Your opinions are not science-based either, so where does the moral authority for your own positions come from?

Well that's a bugger's muddle. Since when were moral decisions science based?

As I said, my conclusion about what "We" should do lines up with Percy and Jar and not you.

That will be proved true if Percy will agree with this statement of yours “I personally am of the opinion, that there is, in fact, some point before birth during which we are talking about a human life“

And if he does, then we are all in agreement.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by NoNukes, posted 08-11-2018 3:47 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 364 by Percy, posted 08-11-2018 6:17 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 367 by NoNukes, posted 08-11-2018 10:34 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6244
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 363 of 441 (837989)
08-11-2018 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 358 by Phat
08-11-2018 4:48 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Phat writes:

perhaps Tangle believes that the moment when the "life" becomes sacred is a definite non-negotiable state and that society needs to protect the rights of the fetus.

The last bit is correct. There are more rights in play here than simply those of the women. The father, the baby and society as a whole. Putting the burden soley on the mother is both unjust and irresponsible. A public health policy that balances conflicting rights is an obvious necessity. Which is why we all have them.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by Phat, posted 08-11-2018 4:48 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17875
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 364 of 441 (837991)
08-11-2018 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by Tangle
08-11-2018 5:12 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
I've greatly resented Paul Ryan's reluctance as Speaker of the House to stand up to Trump, but he said something recently that made me realize that maybe what I perceived as lack of backbone or perhaps even complicity was much more wise than I thought: "The pissing match doesn't work." When Trump senses he's losing he just turns the issue into a pissing match. It's his specialty.

This explains why some discussions here never go anywhere. Once one side decides to turn it into a pissing match there's nothing the other side can do to prevent it. No one wins, or can win.

Can we bring this discussion back from the brink?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Tangle, posted 08-11-2018 5:12 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 365 by Faith, posted 08-11-2018 7:43 PM Percy has responded
 Message 370 by Tangle, posted 08-12-2018 3:55 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30041
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 365 of 441 (837994)
08-11-2018 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 364 by Percy
08-11-2018 6:17 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Tangle writes:

NN writes:

As I said, my conclusion about what "We" should do lines up with Percy and Jar and not you.

That will be proved true if Percy will agree with this statement of yours “I personally am of the opinion, that there is, in fact, some point before birth during which we are talking about a human life“

I don't suppose you will agree but there's the question again. So far you've refused to take a position, human life/not human life at any point before birth.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by Percy, posted 08-11-2018 6:17 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 371 by Percy, posted 08-12-2018 9:14 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30041
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 366 of 441 (837996)
08-11-2018 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by NoNukes
08-11-2018 3:47 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
NN to Tangle writes:

...so where does the moral authority for your own positions come from?

It used to be that there was enough agreement that killing human life is morally wrong that such a question couldn't even come up. I suppose this is just another measure of the death of the former Christian character of the west that you would deny such a shared sense of moral authority.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by NoNukes, posted 08-11-2018 3:47 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by NoNukes, posted 08-11-2018 10:37 PM Faith has responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 367 of 441 (838004)
08-11-2018 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by Tangle
08-11-2018 5:12 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Not interfering is also a decision.

Sigh. You are equivocating here. It is a decision, but it is not the decision about whether or not an abortion happens. I do not have to make that decision.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Tangle, posted 08-11-2018 5:12 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 368 of 441 (838006)
08-11-2018 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 366 by Faith
08-11-2018 7:51 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
It used to be that there was enough agreement that killing human life is morally wrong that such a question couldn't even come up

As this thread has pointed out repeatedly, that position is not the one evangelicals themselves held at some time in the past. I wonder at what time you are referring to when abortion was unthinkable so that questions about it did not come up. Secondly, abortion predates all of that. Thirdly, you've again skipped past the question of when life begins as if you have all of the answers.

Your comments add nothing to the discussion.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by Faith, posted 08-11-2018 7:51 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by Faith, posted 08-12-2018 3:48 AM NoNukes has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30041
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 369 of 441 (838007)
08-12-2018 3:48 AM
Reply to: Message 368 by NoNukes
08-11-2018 10:37 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
I'm not focused on what evangelicals thought.

Here's Wikipedia on Abortion in the United States.

Rise of anti-abortion legislation[edit]

When the United States first became independent, most states applied English common law to abortion. This meant it was not permitted after quickening, or the start of fetal movements, usually felt 15–20 weeks after conception.[7]

Abortions became illegal by statute in Britain in 1803, and various anti-abortion statutes began to appear in the United States in the 1820s that codified or expanded common law. In 1821, a Connecticut law targeted apothecaries who sold "poisons" to women for purposes of inducing an abortion, and New York made post-quickening abortions a felony and pre-quickening abortions a misdemeanor in 1829. Some argue that the early American abortion laws were motivated not by ethical concerns about abortion but by concern about the procedure's safety. However, some legal theorists point out that this theory is inconsistent with the fact that abortion was punishable regardless of whether any harm befell the pregnant woman and the fact that many of the early laws punished not only the doctor or abortionist, but also the woman who hired them.[8]

A number of other factors likely played a role in the rise of anti-abortion laws in the United States. Physicians, who were the leading advocates of abortion criminalization laws, appear to have been motivated at least in part by advances in medical knowledge. Science had discovered that conception inaugurated a more or less continuous process of development, which would produce a new human being if uninterrupted. Moreover, quickening was found to be neither more nor less crucial in the process of gestation than any other step. Many physicians concluded that if society considered it unjustifiable to terminate pregnancy after the fetus had quickened, and if quickening was a relatively unimportant step in the gestation process, then it was just as wrong to terminate a pregnancy before quickening as after quickening.[9] Ideologically, the Hippocratic Oath and the medical mentality of that age to defend the value of human life as an absolute also played a significant role in molding opinions about abortion.[9]

The article reflects to some (small) extent the disagreements on this thread but overall shows that historically abortion was made illegal as the taking of a human life.

Also it makes it clear that my thoughts are in line with science's recognition that there is a continuous process of growth and development from conception on, so that distinguishing any stage where it is not a human being is really impossible. The last paragraph I quote above pretty much lays out the argument I've been putting forward here.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by NoNukes, posted 08-11-2018 10:37 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 372 by NoNukes, posted 08-12-2018 1:35 PM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6244
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 370 of 441 (838008)
08-12-2018 3:55 AM
Reply to: Message 364 by Percy
08-11-2018 6:17 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Percy writes:

Can we bring this discussion back from the brink?

Sure.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by Percy, posted 08-11-2018 6:17 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17875
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 371 of 441 (838012)
08-12-2018 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 365 by Faith
08-11-2018 7:43 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Faith writes:

So far you've refused to take a position, human life/not human life at any point before birth.

So far there have only been attempts to convince me toward a position using feelings, beliefs and sentiments.

I think my position is summed up pretty well in the Supreme Court's Roe v. Wade decision quoted in the same Abortion in the United States artcil you cited in your Message 369:

quote:
A central issue in the Roe case (and in the wider abortion debate in general) is whether human life or personhood begins at conception, birth, or at some point in between. The Court declined to make an attempt at resolving this issue, noting: "We need not resolve the difficult question of when life begins. When those trained in the respective disciplines of medicine, philosophy, and theology are unable to arrive at any consensus, the judiciary, at this point in the development of man's knowledge, is not in a position to speculate as to the answer." Instead, it chose to point out that historically, under English and American common law and statutes, "the unborn have never been recognized ... as persons in the whole sense", and thus, the fetuses are not legally entitled to the protection afforded by the right to life specifically enumerated in the Fourteenth Amendment. So, rather than asserting that human life begins at any specific point, the court simply declared that the State has a "compelling interest" in protecting "potential life" at the point of viability.

I think that pretty well sums up my position, though there's a lot of ambiguity surrounding the term "viability." The viability of an incompletely developed fetus is dependent upon the technological sophistication of available technology at any given birth facility. It isn't a term with any objective definition.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Grammar, clarity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by Faith, posted 08-11-2018 7:43 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 373 by NoNukes, posted 08-12-2018 1:46 PM Percy has responded
 Message 375 by Tangle, posted 08-12-2018 3:06 PM Percy has responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 372 of 441 (838015)
08-12-2018 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 369 by Faith
08-12-2018 3:48 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Also it makes it clear that my thoughts are in line with science's recognition that there is a continuous process of growth and development from conception on, so that distinguishing any stage where it is not a human being is really impossible.

Wrong. The fact that there is a continuum does not make distinguishing some stages impossible. There are some stages where the fact that we are not dealing with a human being is completely clear, just as in a spectrum of visible light, some portions are clearly not red, while other portions are clearly not blue.

It is completely clear that conception is not the point, nor is any point before the fertilized egg becomes attached.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by Faith, posted 08-12-2018 3:48 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by Faith, posted 08-12-2018 2:12 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 373 of 441 (838016)
08-12-2018 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 371 by Percy
08-12-2018 9:14 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
It isn't a term with any objective definition.

That is not correct. You have just given an objective definition. While it is true that it is dependent on the available facilities, that dependence is not subjective. It is just variable to some extent. But it does not depend of feelings, emotion, or anything non measurable or factual. You used the word ambiguity. Yes there is some of that, but the ambiguity is resolvable by talking about the specific facilities and skills that are actually available to the patient.

Now, there may still be problems with using viability in that the definition could well extend to a point before there is any human consciousness. But we don't use viability as an absolute cutoff. Under current jurisprudence, viability is only the point were a state interest is recognized as having a higher importance. Viability may also have an emotional component for the parents that weighs into their decision. In the end, the decisions are going to be made by humans and of course will involve subjectivity. But the definition of viability, based on the circumstances that the parents, mother, and unborn face, is probably one of the least subjective of all the factors.

I do find agree with Tangle and Faith on one point. I don't understand the reluctance to acknowledge that an unborn child, a few seconds before birth, is a human life. And in fact, it is only in an extreme situation where anyone would consider an abortion in that situation. Almost certainly those situations would involve the mother's life.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by Percy, posted 08-12-2018 9:14 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 376 by Percy, posted 08-12-2018 8:18 PM NoNukes has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30041
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 374 of 441 (838019)
08-12-2018 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 372 by NoNukes
08-12-2018 1:35 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Also it makes it clear that my thoughts are in line with science's recognition that there is a continuous process of growth and development from conception on, so that distinguishing any stage where it is not a human being is really impossible.

Wrong.

No, it is indeed clear as I said that what I've been arguing is in line with what is said in that article as quoted, in that it argues and I argue that because there is a continuous process of development there is no point at which we can declare it not human. The article describes that view and I share that view. That view has apparently been superseded in the medical profession although on what basis is not at all clear.

So now you want to argue with that view, fine, but what I said is nevertheless true.

The fact that there is a continuum does not make distinguishing some stages impossible. There are some stages where the fact that we are not dealing with a human being is completely clear,

No it is not "completely clear" to me or to those with whom I am in agreement as described in the article. There are many stages of development, but there are not stages of humanness since all the genetic stuff of humanness is present from conception.

You are applying a different standard, which you are free to do, but nevertheless my standard and that described in that paragraph do indeed argue that we are dealing with a human being at all stages. Again, you may argue for your standard but mine is perfectly reasonable and does have support from physicians according to that article.

You are apparently arguing from the appearance of the developing fetus, which doesn't look like a human being in the earliest stages.

just as in a spectrum of visible light, some portions are clearly not red, while other portions are clearly not blue.

Light does not grow through stages of development.

It is completely clear that conception is not the point, nor is any point before the fertilized egg becomes attached.

It is not at all "completely clear," as evidenced by the fact that science as described in the article disagrees with you.

Nevertheless it's an argument you are welcome to make.

For reference here is that part of the article again:

Wikipedia writes:

Science had discovered that conception inaugurated a more or less continuous process of development, which would produce a new human being if uninterrupted. Moreover, quickening was found to be neither more nor less crucial in the process of gestation than any other step. Many physicians concluded that if society considered it unjustifiable to terminate pregnancy after the fetus had quickened, and if quickening was a relatively unimportant step in the gestation process, then it was just as wrong to terminate a pregnancy before quickening as after quickening.[9] Ideologically, the Hippocratic Oath and the medical mentality of that age to defend the value of human life as an absolute also played a significant role in molding opinions about abortion.[9]

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by NoNukes, posted 08-12-2018 1:35 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 379 by NoNukes, posted 08-12-2018 9:28 PM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6244
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 375 of 441 (838023)
08-12-2018 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 371 by Percy
08-12-2018 9:14 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Percy writes:

I think that pretty well sums up my position,

And also mine.

But it's still obvious that the fertised egg marks the start of process in the development of a human being and that the foetus a moment before birth *is* a full formed human. I really don't understand the objection to that.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by Percy, posted 08-12-2018 9:14 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 377 by Percy, posted 08-12-2018 8:45 PM Tangle has responded

  
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