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Author Topic:   Evangelical Switch from Pro-choice to Anti-abortion
Percy
Member
Posts: 17875
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 421 of 441 (838202)
08-15-2018 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 414 by Tangle
08-15-2018 7:44 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Tangle writes:

Percy writes:

I'm trying to understand why you don't realize you don't know, either.


I know that it is wrong to arbitrarily kill a baby immediately before is born and if you don't then I'm at a loss to know what to say next that isn't simply offensive.

Earlier you confused two different senses of the word "alive", and now you're confusing two different senses of the word "know". There's knowing something in a factual sense, and there's knowing something in a moral sense. I've been saying I do not know in any factual sense when life begins, and you're concluding that that means I don't know in a moral sense whether murder is right or wrong. Of course murder is wrong, but murder requires taking a person's life. Is a fetus a person?

They said that because they feel it is wrong, not because they can prove it is wrong.

'They feel it's wrong'. Of course they feel that it's wrong! You can't prove that first degree murder is wrong or rape is wrong either. Or that anything is wrong for that matter. These are all moral decisions based on our feelings about harm. Scientific proofs aren't possible in forming these judgements.

More clearly, they said that because they feel it is wrong, not because they can prove a fetus is a person.

But you've invented your own Roe v. Wade interpretation, which I don't agree with. I agree with the actual language of the ruling, not all the things you claim they implied.

How can you agree with Roe which says it's wrong to harm babies after a given time but not agree with Roe saying that?

I assume you meant to say that Roe v. Wade says it's wrong to harm fetuses, not babies. Here's another part of Roe for you to ponder:

quote:
In areas other than criminal abortion, the law has been reluctant to endorse any theory that life, as we recognize it, begins before live birth or to accord legal rights to the unborn except in narrowly defined situations and except when the rights are contingent upon live birth.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 414 by Tangle, posted 08-15-2018 7:44 AM Tangle has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6238
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 422 of 441 (838209)
08-16-2018 3:40 AM
Reply to: Message 419 by Percy
08-15-2018 8:01 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Ok Percy I give up for now. I can only take so much equivocation and avoidance.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 419 by Percy, posted 08-15-2018 8:01 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 423 by Percy, posted 08-16-2018 8:52 AM Tangle has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17875
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 423 of 441 (838212)
08-16-2018 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 422 by Tangle
08-16-2018 3:40 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Tangle writes:

Ok Percy I give up for now. I can only take so much equivocation and avoidance.

Oh, okay. Too bad. I thought we were just beginning to get into enough detail to make it interesting.

I could say I think withdrawing from the discussion is prudent given the type of arguments you've been able to bring to the table, and given your inability to control your emotionalism on this topic, and given the short shrift you've given detailed arguments, but I won't say anything like that.

I do think it worth repeating that Roe v. Wade quote again:

quote:
In areas other than criminal abortion, the law has been reluctant to endorse any theory that life, as we recognize it, begins before live birth or to accord legal rights to the unborn except in narrowly defined situations and except when the rights are contingent upon live birth.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by Tangle, posted 08-16-2018 3:40 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 424 by Tangle, posted 08-16-2018 11:11 AM Percy has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6238
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 424 of 441 (838215)
08-16-2018 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 423 by Percy
08-16-2018 8:52 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Percy writes:

In areas other than criminal abortion, the law has been reluctant to endorse any theory that life, as we recognize it, begins before live birth or to accord legal rights to the unborn except in narrowly defined situations and except when the rights are contingent upon live birth.

Ok, I'll bite.

Why do you think this matters to the question you have difficulty answering?

If you don't know that killing a baby just before it's born is right or wrong, I simply don't know how to respond. It's so self-evidently an enormous wrong.

It really troubles me that you're still trying to find legal/scientific defintions of words when both science and law have said that they're not possible. We don't intellectualise crimes like murder and rape - we can't prove that they're wrong, we just know they're wrong and society as a whole has accepted it.

Meanwhile the law says that even though they can't yet give un-born babies all the protection of born babies you still can not kill a baby at that late stage because it's quite obvious to them that it's wrong. Why it's not to you is a mystery - especially when you agree with the Roe verdict.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 423 by Percy, posted 08-16-2018 8:52 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 425 by Faith, posted 08-16-2018 11:32 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 430 by Percy, posted 08-16-2018 12:58 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30028
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 425 of 441 (838221)
08-16-2018 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 424 by Tangle
08-16-2018 11:11 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Are you aware of the practice of "partial birth abortion?"

https://nrlc.org/archive/abortion/facts/pbafacts.html

Percy is just one of those justifying barbarities these days.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 424 by Tangle, posted 08-16-2018 11:11 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 426 by Tangle, posted 08-16-2018 11:37 AM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6238
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 426 of 441 (838222)
08-16-2018 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 425 by Faith
08-16-2018 11:32 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
That's pretty bloody ugly.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 425 by Faith, posted 08-16-2018 11:32 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 427 by Faith, posted 08-16-2018 11:45 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30028
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 427 of 441 (838225)
08-16-2018 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 426 by Tangle
08-16-2018 11:37 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
And LNA described this barbarity in Message 272

Ron Paul recounted something disturbing he - by chance - saw during medical school, by telling about how he accidently wandered into a room where he encountered a baby that had just been removed in a surgical abortion and it was crying, but he was told to let it alone as it was just aborted and it would die, and he quickly left the room he wandered into to get to his proper destination.

I ['d like to] think I would have grabbed the crying baby and run screaming down the halls for help.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 426 by Tangle, posted 08-16-2018 11:37 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 428 by Tangle, posted 08-16-2018 12:11 PM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6238
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 428 of 441 (838227)
08-16-2018 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 427 by Faith
08-16-2018 11:45 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Faith writes:

I think I would have grabbed the crying baby and run screaming down the halls for help.

There is undeniable harm in the process and we should never forget it. I'm still in favour of early abortion but I don't like it at all - it's not easily defensible.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 427 by Faith, posted 08-16-2018 11:45 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 429 by Faith, posted 08-16-2018 12:44 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30028
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 429 of 441 (838228)
08-16-2018 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 428 by Tangle
08-16-2018 12:11 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
At this point I'd be happy if the more barbaric practices were forbidden and only very early abortion was justified although I can't really justify that either. But anything that sharply reduced the mass slaughter that has been going on for decades would be welcome. But I'd like to see it accompanied with a strong message that it means ending a human life, or what would become a human being or however that needs to be worded, to replace the propaganda that says it's not alive, not human or whatnot. Increase the pitch for contraception. Step up the services to help get women through an unwanted pregnancy and improve their prospects by schooling or work or whatever. ANYTHING that would help cut this bloody evil by huge numbers.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 428 by Tangle, posted 08-16-2018 12:11 PM Tangle has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17875
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 430 of 441 (838230)
08-16-2018 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 424 by Tangle
08-16-2018 11:11 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Tangle writes:

Percy writes:

In areas other than criminal abortion, the law has been reluctant to endorse any theory that life, as we recognize it, begins before live birth or to accord legal rights to the unborn except in narrowly defined situations and except when the rights are contingent upon live birth.

Could I get your permission to edit your post so it doesn't credit me with authoring this paragraph of Roe v. Wade?

Ok, I'll bite.

Why do you think this matters to the question you have difficulty answering?

Okay, if you're going to insist on "pissing contest" mode, why are you not able to see the obvious?

If you don't know that killing a baby just before it's born is right or wrong, I simply don't know how to respond. It's so self-evidently an enormous wrong.

And yet you can only declare your position, not explain it.

It really troubles me that you're still trying to find legal/scientific definitions of words when both science and law have said that they're not possible.

What should really trouble you is how you've become so confused.

We don't intellectualise crimes like murder and rape - we can't prove that they're wrong, we just know they're wrong and society as a whole has accepted it.

I've said as much. Perhaps you should expend more of your effort reading what I write and less in posturing.

Meanwhile the law says that even though they can't yet give un-born babies all the protection of born babies you still can not kill a baby at that late stage because it's quite obvious to them that it's wrong. Why it's not to you is a mystery - especially when you agree with the Roe verdict.

I think if you take things down an emotional notch and attempt to engage the discussion sincerely and dispassionately that you might find the understanding you claim you seek.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 424 by Tangle, posted 08-16-2018 11:11 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 431 by Tangle, posted 08-16-2018 4:22 PM Percy has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6238
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 431 of 441 (838238)
08-16-2018 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 430 by Percy
08-16-2018 12:58 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Well I tried, but I'm sorry Percy, I"m no longer interested in discussing this with you, we're not going to make any progress, it'll just annoy both of us.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 430 by Percy, posted 08-16-2018 12:58 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 432 by Percy, posted 08-16-2018 6:00 PM Tangle has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17875
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 432 of 441 (838242)
08-16-2018 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 431 by Tangle
08-16-2018 4:22 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Tangle writes:

Well I tried,...

You tried to badger instead of discuss and persuade.

...but I'm sorry Percy, I"m no longer interested in discussing this with you,...

You already weren't discussing this with me.

...we're not going to make any progress,...

That would all be up to you. This is the third time you've declared you're exiting the discussion. These multiple exits feel very familiar.

...it'll just annoy both of us.

I'm not annoyed. I don't mind repeating explanations, but it could be that "I don't know" is not an answer you could ever find yourself able to accept.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 431 by Tangle, posted 08-16-2018 4:22 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 433 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2018 4:17 AM Percy has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6238
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 433 of 441 (838252)
08-17-2018 4:17 AM
Reply to: Message 432 by Percy
08-16-2018 6:00 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Percy writes:

This is the third time you've declared you're exiting the discussion. These multiple exits feel very familiar.

One post ago I said I'd be withdrawing for a while because we were not making any progress. You tempted me to reply and I hoped that we might get somewhere. But instead of answering what I believe ro be core questions about the issues you came back with more equivocation and avoidance.

So yeh, I'm now withdrawing from discussing this with you for a while longer.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 432 by Percy, posted 08-16-2018 6:00 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 434 by Percy, posted 08-17-2018 7:42 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 435 by Faith, posted 08-17-2018 8:50 AM Tangle has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17875
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 434 of 441 (838255)
08-17-2018 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 433 by Tangle
08-17-2018 4:17 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Tangle writes:

But instead of answering what I believe ro be core questions about the issues you came back with more equivocation and avoidance.

I think progress is possible if you ended all the dramatics and accusations and instead focused on sincere, good faith discussion. You seem to find disagreement with you base and a sign of immorality.

So yeh, I'm now withdrawing from discussing this with you for a while longer.

I'll just keep a count of your withdrawals: that's number 4.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 433 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2018 4:17 AM Tangle has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30028
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 435 of 441 (838257)
08-17-2018 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 433 by Tangle
08-17-2018 4:17 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Hey Tangle, he's equating you with me, shouldn't that set a fire under you to make a huge effort to blast him out of the park? Hey I understand, dealing with Percy is like trying to nail Jello to the wall (Do you have Jello in the UK?) and all you get for your trouble is accusations upon accusations. But since you aren't a fundamentalist you might have a better chance to get the stuff nailed than I would. I'll pray for you to get a second wind, herculean level patience and some good pithy rejoinders.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 433 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2018 4:17 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 436 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2018 9:55 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
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