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Author Topic:   Is The World Getting Better Or Worse?
ringo
Member
Posts: 15577
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 16 of 56 (838416)
08-21-2018 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Phat
08-21-2018 9:46 AM


Re: What the world is really is irrelevant.
Phat writes:

...if a global or domestic crisis ensued....


"Crisis" is a vastly over-used word. We have two crises before lunch every day now. It's a function of faster news access, not "better" or "worse".

A dictator can always use a crisis - like the Reichstag fire - as an excuse but that has nothing to do with whether the world is "better" or "worse" either.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Phat, posted 08-21-2018 9:46 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 08-21-2018 3:33 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11416
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 17 of 56 (838443)
08-21-2018 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by ringo
08-21-2018 11:55 AM


Re: What the world is really is irrelevant.
ringo writes:

A dictator can always use a crisis - like the Reichstag fire - as an excuse but that has nothing to do with whether the world is "better" or "worse" either.

Just this last year, the excuse for a 715 billion dollar military budget getting passed was due to Kim Jong Un having nuclear capability. (The excuse)

If a rogue warhead or two decimated a prime financial or military center in the world (picture 9-11 with 5 nukes instead of 5 planes) it would definitely become a crisis...one which would allow Trump unprecedented power.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by ringo, posted 08-21-2018 11:55 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by ringo, posted 08-21-2018 10:00 PM Phat has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17875
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 18 of 56 (838448)
08-21-2018 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Percy
08-21-2018 8:58 AM


Re: A Couple Clarifications
Percy writes:

Not done but gotta go.

Continuing now...

The western world is to the point now where it can afford to implement a health and social safety net (more so in other parts of the western world than in the United States), but we do this not because of some enlightenment that has come upon our species but because we can afford to believe that our obligations to our fellow man include these things. In earlier times when we couldn't afford them then we didn't believe our obligations included them.

What happens should our prosperity diminish to the point where we can no longer afford these things? The answer is both obvious and inevitable: they will go away. A country cannot pay for what it cannot afford. It's already happening here in the United States. Welfare, radically transformed under Bill Clinton, is a shadow of its former self. The retirement age for Social Security has already crept up to 66 and will continue to creep up. It is already part of law that Social Security benefits will shrink to 75% around 2034 if the trust fund becomes depleted as expected. The Trump administration wants to reduce Medicare benefits.

Some will argue that the United States is richer than ever and that this diminishment of benefits is being driven by increasing selfishness. But the truth is that the US is both richer than ever and becoming increasingly poor. These are both happening because of wealth inequality. Wealth is concentrated among a very few who are growing increasingly wealthy. The rest of the country is becoming increasingly poor and hence is becoming increasingly against redistribution programs that they see as taking their money and giving it to someone else. There is some incongruity and illogic involved in these feelings, but I won't get into that now.

While the US provides an example of the political effects of decreasing wealth, it isn't due to climate change or diminishing natural resources. The people of the US are doing it to themselves through financial and tax legislation that overly benefits the wealthy at the expense of everyone else. How did this happen? Some trace it back to the Reagan administration, and while I'm not so sure myself that's a discussion for a different thread.

The important point is that diminishing wealth causes people to adopt attitudes of a decreasing sense of obligation toward their fellow man, and climate change is going to make us poorer. It's already starting as waters creep inland along coastlines worldwide, including the US. This is from today's Washington Post:

She thought she’d sell her home for nearly $1 million. Thanks to rising sea levels, she’s tearing it down instead.

Elizabeth Boineau is one of many homeowners on the front lines of society’s confrontation with climate change, living in houses where rising sea levels have worsened flooding not just in extreme events like hurricanes, but also heavy rains and even high tides. The increase is undermining the value of coastal properties, according to three studies.

By John Tibbetts and Chris Mooney


I could take the attitude that, hey, it won't affect me, I'm 400 feet above sea level, but that would be wrong. While I won't experience the devastating loss of people along the coasts I'll still experience the loss because as my country becomes poorer then I'll become poorer, we'll all become poorer. Our crops will suffer, fishing banks will continue to diminish, weather will become more severe, fires will become more common. Then there's diminishing natural resources. Water will become more scarce, pollution of our air and water will increase, oil and gas will become more scarce.

Will our technology save us? For climate change it's already too late. Politically the world isn't equipped to unite to fight a scourge whose effects are gradual and whose worst consequences are decades in the future. We've frittered away too much time, so it doesn't matter what technology is able to achieve, climate change is going to happen anyway. By the end of the century average global temperature will be several degrees higher (I believe current projections of an increase of only a degree or two are low).

But will technology enable us to adapt to our transformed world? Pardon my pessimism, but given that year after year we can't even control wildfires in the west, and we'll certainly never be able to control hurricanes and tornados and droughts and floods and rising seas, I doubt it.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Percy, posted 08-21-2018 8:58 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 08-21-2018 6:23 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 19 of 56 (838449)
08-21-2018 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Percy
08-21-2018 4:52 PM


Re: A Couple Clarifications
Percy writes:

But will technology enable us to adapt to our transformed world? Pardon my pessimism, but given that year after year we can't even control wildfires in the west, and we'll certainly never be able to control hurricanes and tornados and droughts and floods and rising seas, I doubt it.

Another issue relates to basic infrastructure, food and water and power. Right now we have a system based on moving stuff from where it's stored to where it's used, but so much of that depends on the environment remaining stable. Right now we are growing food where there ain't no water and flying food all over the world but flying food requires massive infrastructure and irrigation requires a predictable source of water. We have built our power sources next to water used for cooling but that makes those power sources vulnerable to changes in water levels and water content.

Unfortunately we have adopted and continue to adopt a fixed global infrastructure instead of a flexible local infrastructure which will just mean that disruptions in one locale will have repercussions world wide.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Percy, posted 08-21-2018 4:52 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15577
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 20 of 56 (838452)
08-21-2018 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
08-21-2018 3:33 PM


Re: What the world is really is irrelevant.
Phat writes:

If a rogue warhead or two decimated a prime financial or military center in the world (picture 9-11 with 5 nukes instead of 5 planes) it would definitely become a crisis...one which would allow Trump unprecedented power.


Sure, there could be a real crisis. But the point is that a wanabe dictator doesn't need a real crisis. He can tell the gullible that the sun rising tomorrow morning is a crisis and they'll believe him. You don't need a crisis to make a dictator. All you need is people who are willing to accept one.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 08-21-2018 3:33 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 08-22-2018 2:42 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11416
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 21 of 56 (838454)
08-22-2018 2:42 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by ringo
08-21-2018 10:00 PM


The Popular Vote
Trump isn't quite there yet. He never won the popular vote, after all....but I believe that in the event of a crisis he would simply use what executive powers he has now to seize control. The military is a key too. No wonder we spend $700 billion a year to keep them happy.

And the populists would be glad to have a "man of God" in power during such a crisis. Nevermind that he isn't.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by ringo, posted 08-21-2018 10:00 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by ringo, posted 08-22-2018 12:21 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15577
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 22 of 56 (838467)
08-22-2018 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Phat
08-22-2018 2:42 AM


Re: The Popular Vote
Phat writes:

...but I believe that in the event of a crisis he would simply use what executive powers he has now to seize control.


I can keep repeating it as long as you keep ignoring it: He doesn't need a real crisis.

He doesn't need a real crisis.

He doesn't need a real crisis.

He's never shown any interest in truth or reality before. He could get up tomorrow morning and shout, "There's a crisis!" and the Republicans would throw dictatorial powers at him with the biggest shovel they could find. A few months later they might pause their building of concentration camps long enough to ask what the crisis was.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 08-22-2018 2:42 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 08-22-2018 1:14 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30028
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 23 of 56 (838475)
08-22-2018 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by ringo
08-22-2018 12:21 PM


Re: The Popular Vote
O blithering nonsense. Trump isn't a dictator type. And WHAT Republicans support him enough to give him such powers?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

2Cr 10:4-5 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God...

Political Correctness is Cultural Marxism

If fascism comes to America it will be in the form of liberalism -Ronald Reagan


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by ringo, posted 08-22-2018 12:21 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 08-22-2018 1:52 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 25 by ringo, posted 08-22-2018 2:04 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 24 of 56 (838483)
08-22-2018 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
08-22-2018 1:14 PM


Re: The Popular Vote
Faith writes:

Trump isn't a dictator type.

Yet he behaves exactly like il Duce; even has the exact same speach patterns and mannerisms. Even the same facial expressions.

Faith writes:

And WHAT Republicans support him enough to give him such powers?

Fortunately so far he has not had the support of the Rule of Law, the Senate, the House, the Courts, the voting public. In fact other than the support of the Electoral Congress and his dwindling cult following the only support he has is from bigots and fascists.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 08-22-2018 1:14 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15577
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 25 of 56 (838485)
08-22-2018 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
08-22-2018 1:14 PM


Re: The Popular Vote
Faith writes:

Trump isn't a dictator type.


He's an incompetent moron who has demonstrated repeatedly that he would like to rule by decree without the encumbrance of legal niceties. He's more dangerous than a competent dictator.

Faith writes:

And WHAT Republicans support him enough to give him such powers?


The ones who put him in office in the first place and the ones who haven't booted him out yet.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 08-22-2018 1:14 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7594
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 26 of 56 (838495)
08-22-2018 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
08-19-2018 4:05 PM


Phat writes:

Faith (and I) would argue that the world is getting worse or at best still mired in the violent brutish thug phase that Percy mentions.

1. Deaths due to wars are at all time lows.
2. Fewest people (per capita) below the poverty line in all of human history.
3. Least amount of starvation in perhaps all of human history.

Just those three things alone tip it towards "getting better" in my estimation. I don't know what the numbers are on democracies worldwide, but that probably looks good as well.

Just 2 or 3 generations ago you had to worry about your child dying from diseases that no parent has to worry about today. 100 years ago the average life expectancy was much lower than it is today.

In my opinion, this has a lot to do with humans creating the most deadly weapons ever made: the nuclear bomb. A war between superpowers will lead to utter destruction of one or both superpowers, so they are limited to small proxy wars. Times of peace have lead to times of prosperity.

Could this all go in the opposite direction in the future? Maybe. However, that's not the quesiton. If you are asking about right now, then this is the best time in human history to be alive, on average.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 08-19-2018 4:05 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 08-22-2018 4:46 PM Taq has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30028
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 27 of 56 (838500)
08-22-2018 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Taq
08-22-2018 4:31 PM


I'll use your post to give my own answer to the OP:

Yes we are living in the blessings won in the cneturies before us when the population was more Christian. God has blessed us for our obedience and we're still basking in it.

But in the last half century to a century or so Christianity has declined and we've embraced all kinds of anti-Christian ideas and practices, which are bringing God's judgments down on us. They are only going to escalate until the nation is destroyed unless we change our moral direction.

This is about America and the west mostly but many other nations never did sink quite to our moral mess and they've been able to make use of our blessings for themselves too. Though since we were predominantly Christian we are held more responsible and will receive greater punishment for falling away from it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Taq, posted 08-22-2018 4:31 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Taq, posted 08-22-2018 6:03 PM Faith has responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7594
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.4


(2)
Message 28 of 56 (838506)
08-22-2018 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Faith
08-22-2018 4:46 PM


Faith writes:

But in the last half century to a century or so Christianity has declined and we've embraced all kinds of anti-Christian ideas and practices, which are bringing God's judgments down on us.

Lowest poverty in all of history, lowest starvation rates, fewest wars, most freedom . . . if that is God's judgement being brought down on us, then I say we do whatever we can do get more of it. Right now is the best time to be alive in the entirety of human history.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 08-22-2018 4:46 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Faith, posted 08-23-2018 2:13 AM Taq has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30028
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 29 of 56 (838512)
08-23-2018 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Taq
08-22-2018 6:03 PM


There is always a time gap between the cause and the effect.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Taq, posted 08-22-2018 6:03 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Taq, posted 08-27-2018 4:54 PM Faith has responded

    
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8811
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 30 of 56 (838521)
08-23-2018 10:33 AM


Learning New Things
Today I learn that the all-powerful god is laggy. His will takes time to implement. Decades in fact. How interesting.
Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 08-23-2018 11:46 AM NosyNed has not yet responded

  
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