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Author Topic:   Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14546
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 496 of 1159 (841098)
10-08-2018 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 495 by Faith
10-08-2018 1:01 AM


Re: Oh well
quote:

The fossil order is of no use except as a rationalization for evolution and since evolution is genetically impossible the fossil record is just a useless odd fact.

It doesnt matter whether you consider it useless or not. The order of the fossil record is a major feature. Any viable explanation of the fossil record must account for it. The Flood explanation fails to do so. Even if your opinions about evolution were true it wouldnt matter.

But again thank you for proving me correct about you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 495 by Faith, posted 10-08-2018 1:01 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 497 by Faith, posted 10-08-2018 1:33 AM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30162
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 497 of 1159 (841101)
10-08-2018 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 496 by PaulK
10-08-2018 1:06 AM


Re: Oh well
But if there is no evolution there is no order, it's just an odd illusion, so there is nothing to account for.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 496 by PaulK, posted 10-08-2018 1:06 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 498 by PaulK, posted 10-08-2018 1:41 AM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14546
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 498 of 1159 (841102)
10-08-2018 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 497 by Faith
10-08-2018 1:33 AM


Re: Oh well
quote:

But if there is no evolution there is no order, it's just an odd illusion, so there is nothing to account for.

That is nonsense. The order is an observed fact. Again - since you seem to have missed it - I am talking of the observed order.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 497 by Faith, posted 10-08-2018 1:33 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 499 by Faith, posted 10-08-2018 2:14 AM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30162
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 499 of 1159 (841103)
10-08-2018 2:14 AM
Reply to: Message 498 by PaulK
10-08-2018 1:41 AM


Re: Oh well
But there is no problem with the order in the sense of the same fossils ending up in the same layers, that's just a mechanical thing.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 498 by PaulK, posted 10-08-2018 1:41 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 500 by PaulK, posted 10-08-2018 2:32 AM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14546
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 500 of 1159 (841104)
10-08-2018 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 499 by Faith
10-08-2018 2:14 AM


Re: Oh well
quote:

But there is no problem with the order in the sense of the same fossils ending up in the same layers, that's just a mechanical thing.

Then please produce this mechanical explanation. Because nobody else has been able to come up with one that explains the actual order. And you havent in previous discussions either.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 499 by Faith, posted 10-08-2018 2:14 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 503 by Faith, posted 10-08-2018 8:33 AM PaulK has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6351
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 501 of 1159 (841105)
10-08-2018 3:03 AM
Reply to: Message 486 by Faith
10-07-2018 11:48 PM


Re: Oh well
Faith writes:

Funny you think this mere empty assertion is "demonstrable" truth, or that a hundred years means something.

Now Faith, you know that when I say that that the world knows that the earth is old, I mean it has knowledge that it's old, not simply believes that it's old. We can prove it and have shown you how here many times.

Do you really think somebody just invented all those genealogies?

Yes. Obviously.

I laughed when I learned the Earth is only 6000 years old. It's really pretty funny in the context of today's ridiculous ideas about its age.

It does seem that there's nothing to be done about people that actually DO believe that the earth is flat, that aliens carry out anal probes on humans and that walking under ladders is unlucky. Us normals just have to live with the loons and hope they don't do any real damage.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 486 by Faith, posted 10-07-2018 11:48 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 502 by Phat, posted 10-08-2018 7:37 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 504 by Faith, posted 10-08-2018 8:39 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11569
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 502 of 1159 (841109)
10-08-2018 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 501 by Tangle
10-08-2018 3:03 AM


Past Perspective: 2012
Just to add past perspective to this discussion:
ringo in 2012 writes:

How do you conclude that the Bible is the word of God? Doesn't it have to conform to reality in some way to be considered reliable?

Faith in 2012 writes:

Well I KNOW it's the word of God. Many things contribute to that knowledge that I don't think I could easily spell out although they include such mundane things as that I simply believe the Bible writers are credible witnesses. Since what they witness includes the supernatural works of God and Jesus Christ, that's good evidence OF God, and since that much is true I also believe the statements in scripture that point to its writers being inspired by God. But it doesn't necessarily all come together in that order and there's lots more than that, seems to me every day I learn new things that confirm the Bible is God's word.

I also believe it does reflect reality, perfectly, and for the most part that is verified by observation and experience. Where it isn't I simply know that God's creation and God's word can't contradict each other and since God is infallible and human thought is fallible, it's a no-brainer which one has to yield to the other, starting with my own thoughts when something in scripture is beyond my understanding. It's a sad thing that so many put their own minds above God's.

ringo in 2012 writes:

Reality is that the geological record could not have accumulated in 6000 years. The Bible is wrong about that, period.

ringo in 2012 writes:

You can't just say that the sky "must be" green because the Bible sez so. Looking out the window proves it isn't so. Reality is where you have to start.

Faith in 2012 writes:

Well, the Bible doesn't say such absurd things, overall it confirms observation and experience of the world. The conflicts come in with these speculative sciences about the past. Once you know God's word IS God's word, you know those are wrong. It would be nice to be able to prove it, and I think a lot of creationism has been proved, but also He doesn't seem to want to give us too much of that sort of evidence, because we are not to "walk by sight" meaning things we know, but "by faith." God has set things up so that we are to BELIEVE Him over our own thoughts. Those who do that, find that there is a lot more to reality bthan we ever dreamed. "Repent and believe" says scripture. "Believe and be saved" says scripture. "Faith is the evidence of things unseen" says scripture. "All these things have been written that ye might BELIEVE..." says scripture.

That's the rules. That way lies salvation, that way lies blessings beyond imagination. That's the ONLY way to Reality.

Faith will never change her mind as her belief includes inerrancy of scripture..in a word for word way.

I dont go that far, but would never dismiss the idea that Jesus existed and now exists. Thats as far as I will go.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 501 by Tangle, posted 10-08-2018 3:03 AM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 511 by ringo, posted 10-08-2018 12:11 PM Phat has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30162
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 503 of 1159 (841110)
10-08-2018 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 500 by PaulK
10-08-2018 2:32 AM


Re: Oh well
Since evolution is false on other grounds so that the order is not evidence for evolution, you have no explanation for the order either. It must be mechanically explained, but since you don't have an explanation either, that's the best that can be said for now.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 500 by PaulK, posted 10-08-2018 2:32 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 505 by PaulK, posted 10-08-2018 8:47 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30162
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 504 of 1159 (841111)
10-08-2018 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 501 by Tangle
10-08-2018 3:03 AM


Re: Oh well
The amount of variation/evolution in living things that we see today fits pretty nicely into a few thousand years given the disease and death that entered at the Fall, much of it brought about by the disease process known as mutation. Millions of years is not only unnecessary, but given the reality of gradual attrition to extinction nothing would be left alive by now on the Old Earth model.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 501 by Tangle, posted 10-08-2018 3:03 AM Tangle has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14546
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 505 of 1159 (841112)
10-08-2018 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 503 by Faith
10-08-2018 8:33 AM


Re: Oh well
quote:

Since evolution is false on other grounds so that the order is not evidence for evolution, you have no explanation for the order either.

Wrong on every count. The most important point is that we only need the life on Earth to change over time - Progressive Creation works as well for that as evolution.

quote:

It must be mechanically explained, but since you don't have an explanation either, that's the best that can be said for now.

Since you have no viable explanation and since your arguments against evolution dont work - and wouldnt be sufficient even if they did - we can still say that the order of the fossil record is strong evidence against the claim the the Flood created the fossil record.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 503 by Faith, posted 10-08-2018 8:33 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30162
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 506 of 1159 (841122)
10-08-2018 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 427 by GDR
10-06-2018 2:04 AM


Re: One god or many
Just noticed you are on the board and since you've come to mind recently because of some devotional writings I've been reading I thought I might address a post or two to you about it.

You seem to limit your idea of the Christian life to good works, or loving your neighbor, would you say that's correct?

GDR writes:

Yes, as a Christian I believe that Jesus perfectly modeled the nature of God but although His basic message of love of all creation, and even our enemies is simple, understanding it's application isn't always so simple, so there are disagreements and it is belief.

What about love of God in your system? It's the first of the ten commandments after all. Love of neighbor with all the good works that entails is embodied in the other commandments but love of God comes first. Devotional writings aim to raise our affections to God Himself but I was wondering if you consider your relation to God to be much of a part of Christian life at all. It seems that you may not just because you seem so focused on love of, as you say above, the creation, enemy etc.

I base my life on the faith that my understanding of God is at least close enough to the truth to use that teaching as a foundation to base my life on, no matter how imperfectly I do it.

Which is all about doing good for others, loving others? What about prayer? How much is that part of your Christian vision? How about prayer just as communion with God because He's lovable and wants our company?

Our conversations are usually about your objection to making the Bible so important, but I started thinking that you may be missing something apart from that issue, just in how you live in terms of Jesus' message rather than in terms of loving Jesus Himself personally above all else.

Just a thought.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 427 by GDR, posted 10-06-2018 2:04 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 526 by GDR, posted 10-09-2018 2:36 AM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 507 of 1159 (841127)
10-08-2018 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 486 by Faith
10-07-2018 11:48 PM


Re: Oh well
Faith writes:

Funny you think this mere empty assertion is "demonstrable" truth, or that a hundred years means something.


We've only known to fly for a hundred years or so. We've only known how to go to the moon for fifty years or so. We've only known about nuclear energy for a hundred years or so. We've only known about electricity for a couple of hundred years.

So the length of time that we've known something has nothing to do with whether it's true or not.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 486 by Faith, posted 10-07-2018 11:48 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 509 by Faith, posted 10-08-2018 12:04 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 508 of 1159 (841128)
10-08-2018 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 490 by Faith
10-08-2018 12:37 AM


Re: Oh well
Faith writes:

Nobody could invent the particular genealogies in Genesis.


Have you ever read The Lord of the Rings? It has a lot of genealogies, to rival the Bible. All made up.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 490 by Faith, posted 10-08-2018 12:37 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 510 by Faith, posted 10-08-2018 12:05 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30162
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 509 of 1159 (841129)
10-08-2018 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 507 by ringo
10-08-2018 12:00 PM


Re: Oh well
Yeah but in this case it's about millions of years of supposed history that didn't exist and is based on wild conjectures that can't ever come up to the level of proof of the other sciences behind the phenomena you mention. The historical sciences are all supported only by imagination unlike the hard sciences.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 507 by ringo, posted 10-08-2018 12:00 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 512 by ringo, posted 10-08-2018 12:13 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 516 by ramoss, posted 10-08-2018 2:54 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30162
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 510 of 1159 (841130)
10-08-2018 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 508 by ringo
10-08-2018 12:02 PM


Re: Oh well
they don't rival the Bible.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 508 by ringo, posted 10-08-2018 12:02 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 513 by ringo, posted 10-08-2018 12:14 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 517 by ramoss, posted 10-08-2018 2:57 PM Faith has responded

    
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