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Author Topic:   Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith
Faith
Member
Posts: 29820
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 541 of 614 (841254)
10-10-2018 4:56 AM
Reply to: Message 536 by GDR
10-09-2018 8:30 PM


Re: loving God
GDR writes:

The idea of being motivated because of being saved is not the message that we get from following Jesus. It is actually the opposite. Yes, the ability to love is a gift from God and we are called to be grateful for that gift, but we show our gratitude for it by spreading it to others and to all of creation for that matter.

Seems to me you've got things upside down.

1John 4:19 writes:

We love him, because he first loved us.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 536 by GDR, posted 10-09-2018 8:30 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17736
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 542 of 614 (841255)
10-10-2018 7:24 AM
Reply to: Message 536 by GDR
10-09-2018 8:30 PM


Re: loving God
I thought this was great and wonder what you think of a couple of suggested changes.

What would you think of this:

It becomes about controlling God instead of allowing Him to control us.

Becoming this:

It becomes about controlling God instead of allowing his love to flow through us out into the world.

And would "selflessly" be a better word than "sacrificially" here. If not, why is "sacrificially" the better word:

GDR writes:

Loving others even sacrificially is supposed to be where we find our joy. Your faith is about loving others because ultimately there is a big pay back, meaning that you are never free to love sacrificially.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 536 by GDR, posted 10-09-2018 8:30 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 546 by GDR, posted 10-11-2018 12:17 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 555 by GDR, posted 10-11-2018 10:58 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17736
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 543 of 614 (841256)
10-10-2018 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 538 by GDR
10-10-2018 2:02 AM


Re: loving God
I'm trying to figure out why you would say this, which implies that you have a deep capacity to see love in everyone:

GDR writes:

Faith, I'm not questioning the fact that you are a loving wonderful person, and a wonderful Christian.

When just a message ago you said this:

Nonsense. I know numerous non-Christians who are more Christ-like than a lot of Christians I know.

Which implies much more objectivity.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 538 by GDR, posted 10-10-2018 2:02 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 564 by GDR, posted 10-11-2018 2:51 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29820
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 544 of 614 (841258)
10-10-2018 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 538 by GDR
10-10-2018 2:02 AM


Re: loving God
I keep rereading your post and want to answer more of it.

I do have a problem though with your doctrine. I know that you have retained a message of love from your Christianity.

It is the most magnificent glorious message of love from God to man imaginable.

Not everyone can do that however. When you hold to your understanding of how the Bible is to be understood you have to explain to others that God was capable of ordering his followers to commit genocide and engage in public executions by stoning, but that He doesn't do that anymore.

I never felt any necessity to explain this until I came to EvC where people refuse to learn from God and instead talk about Him as if He weren't the God who made all things. God is a God of justice and that's what you are describing, His judgments on peoples for sin. Public stoning was the method of execution of the day and Israel was a theocracy. I don't apologize for any of that. If someone wants to accuse God instead of hearing the gospel I just figure they aren't really interested in Christianity.

You also have to explain to people why it is that God will assign to hell if they don't get their doctrine right.

Christianity did not invent Hell, a belief in an afterlife where the wicked are punished has been held in many cultures and religions of the world. When the gospel first went out I'm sure nobody had to explain anything about Hell because most people already believed in some version of it, there were words in all languages already available to translate the concept, and the Bible doesn't even bother to explain it, just refers to it as to any commonly understood concept. The Good News (Gospel) of salvation could therefore have been accepted as the answer to worries engendered in their own cultures, whether of suffering for thousands of years or coming back as a rat or whatever. That's what is meant by the term Good News, it's good news in the context of beliefs that your sins determine your fate, destiny, karma or whatnot: the idea that God loved us enough to save us from that brings enormous joy and gratitude for some.

I just contend that trying to scare people into becoming Christian is not what God wants. It is no wonder that so many completely reject Christianity when it is presented that way.

That is not how the gospel is presented. Jesus said "Repent and believe" and that's the basic format of the gospel.

I'm suggesting that from an evangelical POV what God wants us to respond to His love and often they respond because they can see God's love in His followers.

Scripture says it is "the goodness of God that leads to repentance." (Romans 2:4) There is nothing preached about Hell.

I didn't come to EvC as an evangelist, I came to debate evolution. Often when I join threads about religion it is to respond to such accusations as you are talking about, about "genocide" or about Hell and so on. I try to answer them according to my understanding of the biblical view. You seem to be confusing this kind of discussion with a presentation of the gospel.

Sure, tell people that there is life after death where the pain goes away but again I suggest that it shouldn't be used as a carrot on stick.

That is just weird. It is salvation itself one wants to bring about, not some other goal a carrot on a stick implies. You really have no idea what this is all about. If we are not born again, if we are not saved, we simply do not have the life of God in us. It doesn't matter how much we do in the way of good works if it is not done through the power and life of God and we get that by repenting of our sins and believing that Jesus came as the Messiah and died in our place.

It is just a gift from a loving God and that all of mankind, Christian or not, is called to respond to that love by reflecting it out into the world.

We are to become a "new Creation" by the power of God through the gospel. God is remaking the whole Creation that was destroyed by the Flood and the death and disease brought by the Fall, starting by restoring humanity to the state of Adam and Eve before the Fall, or actually much better than that since we will participate in His own life. He is rescuing the entire Creation from the Fall. He is changing us from fleshly selfish fallen humanity to His own image. This begins with receiving Christ as the seed of that new life. Good works are the natural result of this new life. If you don't hold out salvation as the gospel before you preach good works you've got everything upside down and backwards.

'

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 538 by GDR, posted 10-10-2018 2:02 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 545 by ringo, posted 10-10-2018 11:58 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 548 by GDR, posted 10-11-2018 2:38 AM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15398
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 545 of 614 (841259)
10-10-2018 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 544 by Faith
10-10-2018 11:11 AM


Re: loving God
Faith writes:

It is the most magnificent glorious message of love from God to man imaginable.


That reflects the limits of your imagination more than anything else.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 544 by Faith, posted 10-10-2018 11:11 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4500
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 546 of 614 (841283)
10-11-2018 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 542 by Percy
10-10-2018 7:24 AM


Re: loving God
Percy writes:

I thought this was great and wonder what you think of a couple of suggested changes.
What would you think of this:

It becomes about controlling God instead of allowing Him to control us.
Becoming this:

It becomes about controlling God instead of allowing his love to flow through us out into the world.

Sorry Percy. I missed this post. I would agree with that change. When you look at religions in general it seems to be so often about getting God to do what we want Him to do. All through the OT it is so often, (and there are lots of exceptions) about the idea of following all the right rules and Yahweh will lead them in the defeat of their enemies.

It is even obvious in the Gospels that the disciples still had that idea that Jesus as Messiah would lead them against their enemies. Again in the first part of Acts 1 and after the resurrection they still didn't get Jesus' message. Jesus' Kingdom was an altogether different kingdom than they envisioned and defeating their enemies with love instead of swords was beyond their comprehension at that time.

That is my problem with Faith's understanding. It is IMHO the idea that if we give intellectual assent to some basic Christian doctrine that we will be rewarded with eternal life. This turns faith into a work.

So yes I agree, but in a way if we are allowing God's love to flow through us we have at least to a certain degree to have handed over control to God. But where I like your term better because it is specific to a loving god as I suppose that terrorists could also feel that they are giving control over to God as they envision him.

I guess I may have been a tad too clever in trying to use JFK's quote.

Percy writes:

And would "selflessly" be a better word than "sacrificially" here. If not, why is "sacrificially" the better word:

I think that loving selflessly is a good term as it is broader in scope. I think that we could say that if one loves sacrificially then it is an act of selfless love but that selfless love is not necessarily sacrificial.

Edited by GDR, : too not to


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 542 by Percy, posted 10-10-2018 7:24 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11300
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 547 of 614 (841284)
10-11-2018 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 515 by ringo
10-08-2018 1:26 PM


Re: Past Perspective: 2012
ringo writes:

The reality of the character has nothing, nothing, nothing to do with what the words say.

We strongly disagree on this one. Without characters to reflect the words, words are empty.

In the movie Braveheart, the following quote is uttered: Brothers! What we do in life echoes in eternity..

quote:
Russell Crowe plays Maximus, a super tough and super smart Roman general. Think of Maximus as a coach getting his players ready for a game where what's at stake is, well, your life.

Maximus is a great leader, and his troops really respect him. In this scene, the soldiers are waiting to see if they're going to fight, and when a (literal) headless horseman comes back from the enemy's direction, the men know it's time to gear up. Maximus says this memorable line from atop his trusty steed to rally his troops before battle.


The words themselves mean nothing without the encouragement and example modeled by a strong leader. Nobody is simply going to sell all they have and follow an idea...unless they are idealistic and somewhat naive.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 515 by ringo, posted 10-08-2018 1:26 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 557 by ringo, posted 10-11-2018 12:24 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4500
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 548 of 614 (841285)
10-11-2018 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 544 by Faith
10-10-2018 11:11 AM


Re: loving God
Faith writes:

I never felt any necessity to explain this until I came to EvC where people refuse to learn from God and instead talk about Him as if He weren't the God who made all things. God is a God of justice and that's what you are describing, His judgments on peoples for sin. Public stoning was the method of execution of the day and Israel was a theocracy. I don't apologize for any of that. If someone wants to accuse God instead of hearing the gospel I just figure they aren't really interested in Christianity.


We agree that God is the creator. I would agree with you as creator and as the one responsible for our existence that He would have the right to order genocide and public stoning. He would also have the right to have his followers fly airplanes into buildings taking thousands of lives. Well how do we decide if God actually did command His followers to do those things?

You and I are both Christians so what is it we believe about Jesus? John 1 says this:

quote:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Then John writes:
quote:
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John is saying that the Word, (Logos), of God was there from the very beginning and that Word or nature of God was embodied by Jesus.

You would have us believe that the Word, (Logos) of God is flexible and that God is a god of situational ethics. So just because God could order us to commit heinous acts does not mean He did.

So to come to a conclusion as Christians we look to Jesus who perfectly embodied the Word of God that existed from the beginning and continued through the time that those OT books were written.

Jesus lived in a land where He and all His fellow Jews had their land brutally occupied by the Romans who then brutally ruled over them. Did He suggest that the Roman men, women, children and infants be slaughtered? No He said that they should love their enemy, turn the other cheek and go the extra mile. Jesus is essentially saying that the enemy isn't the Romans but the enemy is evil itself and that the ultimate weapon against evil is love. That was how evil was defeated by an act of love on the cross.

This is from Deuteronomy 20:

quote:
12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby. 16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy themthe Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusitesas the LORD your God has commanded you.
Do you actually believe that God, whose nature we see perfectly revealed in Jesus would actually command that? Every creature that breaths is to be killed except that with the communities that aren't to inconveniently too far away they can take the women, children cattle etc as plunder. On top of that, these were their neighbours and not even their occupiers.

Once again if the Word of God as embodied by Jesus was there from the beginning, then we can very safely know that the commands that Deuteronomy attribute to God did not in fact come from God but from the prideful and power hungry hearts of men. God the Father of Jesus has one consistent nature, and as we see in Jesus His nature is one of perfect and consistent love.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 544 by Faith, posted 10-10-2018 11:11 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 549 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 8:06 AM GDR has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29820
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 549 of 614 (841289)
10-11-2018 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 548 by GDR
10-11-2018 2:38 AM


Re: loving God
We agree that God is the creator. I would agree with you as creator and as the one responsible for our existence that He would have the right to order genocide and public stoning.

God always acts righteously and justly. He cannot commit "genocide" because that is defined as a crime and God cannot commit a crime. He cannot do anything wrong, sinful, unrighteous or criminal. He has no such "right" as you are claiming. Therefore when He has a people killed it is the death penalty for THEIR crimes, sins, idolatries and so on. In the cases so often referred to the peoples had been given hundreds of years to repent, and it was only when their iniquities had reached "the fullness of time" that God sent judgment against them. We cannot possibly understand this from our modern vantage point, but we are certainly in the wrong if we impose our understanding on God's judgments and judge Him when we are to be judged by Him.

He would also have the right to have his followers fly airplanes into buildings taking thousands of lives. Well how do we decide if God actually did command His followers to do those things?

I have no problem at all deciding that because I know the Bible is "God-breathed" so that I know what it says is the truth. As for the WTC attack I believe nothing happens without God so that too is His judgment, though this one was more like God's bringing the enemies of His people, the Assyrians and Babylonians against Israel and Judah, something they initiated but served God's purposes anyway, in the case of the WTCD a judgment which nobody heeded of course, except a very few preachers I happened to hear at the time. All the rest were saying God doesn't do such things.

Well they have no knowledge of God's judgments then. 9/11 should have been followed by a great movement of repentance toward God to restore the nation to His favor, but instead we did what ancient Israel also did when under judgment: God destroyed the trees so they replanted the trees; God knocked down buildings so they rebuilt the buildings. I think that is in Isaiah 10 though I'd have to look it up.

{ABE: Turns out it is in Isaiah 9:

Isaiah 9:10-13 writes:

The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycomores are cut down, but we will change them into cedars. Therefore the LORD shall set up the adversaries of Rezin against him, and join his enemies together; The Syrians before, and the Philistines behind; and they shall devour Israel with open mouth. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still. For the people turneth not unto him that smiteth them, neither do they seek the LORD of hosts.

/ABE}

Instead of repenting and owning their sin Israel ignored their sin, felt sorry for themselves and rebuilt what God had destroyed. And God says that He will judge them even more because of that.

And that's what America has done as well. This was all written about in the book "The Harbinger" by Jonathan Cahn who saw the connection between our destroyed trees and buildings and Israel's in that passage, some pretty uncanny connections as a matter of fact, a direct pointing to the teaching about defying God's judgments and bringing more as a result.

We never learn. As long as people hate God for His judgments we'll just go on reaping judgments. Too many have a sappy view of Jesus as having nothing to do with judgment. If you read Isaiah 61, which He quoted in the synagogue about His mission as Messiah, you might note that He read only the part about His coming as a savior and a comforter, and stopped at the point where it goes on to say "the day of vengeance of our God." That's His mission too, but on His second coming. He came once to save us, but He'll come a second time to judge the world. Same Jesus, same God of the Old Testament, the one you hate.

You and I are both Christians so what is it we believe about Jesus?

Honestly, GDR, I really don't know if you are a Christian. Sometimes I accept that you are and other times I think you reject too much of the truth to be a Christian. And you even reject salvation, the gospel itself, actually talk about it as an unworthy human manipulation -- the thought makes me shudder.

As I read through the rest of your message I realize it can't be answered without more thought than I can give it right now. I can say, glibly enough, that you are comparing apples and oranges, but since apparently this is the core of your thinking I have to spend more time on it. Hopefully soon.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 548 by GDR, posted 10-11-2018 2:38 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 550 by PaulK, posted 10-11-2018 8:39 AM Faith has responded
 Message 560 by GDR, posted 10-11-2018 2:38 PM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14408
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 550 of 614 (841290)
10-11-2018 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 549 by Faith
10-11-2018 8:06 AM


Re: loving God
So heres the difference.

GDR and Faith agree that the Bible says that God ordered the killing of particular peoples. Which is, by definition, genocide.

GDR and Faith agree that genocide is wrong and that God would not order it.

GDR straightforwardly concludes that God did not give the orders.

But Faith insists that God did give the orders but we have to pretend it isnt genocide. Even though it absolutely clearly is.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 549 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 8:06 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 551 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 9:00 AM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29820
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 551 of 614 (841292)
10-11-2018 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 550 by PaulK
10-11-2018 8:39 AM


Re: loving God
The term "genocide" is the moral equivalent of the term "murder." God cannot commit murder, but He does execute the death penalty against criminals, idolators, and so on, in whatever numbers they are guilty.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 550 by PaulK, posted 10-11-2018 8:39 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 552 by PaulK, posted 10-11-2018 9:07 AM Faith has responded
 Message 556 by Phat, posted 10-11-2018 12:22 PM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14408
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 552 of 614 (841296)
10-11-2018 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 551 by Faith
10-11-2018 9:00 AM


Re: loving God
No. The OED definition is:


The deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular nation or ethnic group.

Oxford English Dictionary

Instead of denying that it is genocide you ought to be arguing that there is such a thing as justifiable genocide.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 551 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 9:00 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 553 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 9:17 AM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29820
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 553 of 614 (841302)
10-11-2018 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 552 by PaulK
10-11-2018 9:07 AM


Re: loving God
Oh let's not get into one of those interminable semantic messes. The definition failed to identify it as murder but that's what it means. They didn't have God in mind who judges entire tribes and nations.

ABE: "Justifiable genocide" wouldn't work because it still implies less than the absolute perfect justice enacted by God.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 552 by PaulK, posted 10-11-2018 9:07 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 554 by PaulK, posted 10-11-2018 9:39 AM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14408
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 554 of 614 (841308)
10-11-2018 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 553 by Faith
10-11-2018 9:17 AM


Re: loving God
No, the definition is not meant to define it as murder. The OED is not in the habit of missing out important parts of definitions.

There is no semantic mess. You are simply wrong. And refusing to admit it even in the face of clear evidence.

You may note that Merriam-Webster also disagrees with you.

And if you are interested in the criminal definition, so does the UN

ABE

quote:

ABE: "Justifiable genocide" wouldn't work because it still implies less than the absolute perfect justice enacted by God.

Why not ? It is genocide and you claim it is justified.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 553 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 9:17 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 558 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 2:34 PM PaulK has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4500
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 555 of 614 (841314)
10-11-2018 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 542 by Percy
10-10-2018 7:24 AM


Re: loving God
Parcy writes:

And would "selflessly" be a better word than "sacrificially" here. If not, why is "sacrificially" the better word:


I got thinking more about this. In retrospect I think I prefer sacrificially. Loving selflessly can mean committing a loving act that costs nothing such as paying a compliment to a stranger. Loving selfishly means that loving myself to the point that I am prepared to cause others to lose something for my benefit. Loving sacrificially is being prepared to give up things such as time, money, material things, pride or possibly even life itself for the benefit of others.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 542 by Percy, posted 10-10-2018 7:24 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
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