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Author Topic:   Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith
Faith
Member
Posts: 30041
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 721 of 863 (842414)
10-31-2018 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 715 by PaulK
10-30-2018 5:33 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
In the actual text Peter makes it clear that it was WRONG of them to hold back part of the money and that they had no excuse for ho,ding back part of them money. And why should they not be punished for doing wrong ?

Because it isn't a punishable wrong. And since they had a right to dispose of their possessions as they pleased, which Peter very very clearly spells out, there is no wrong at all in holding back some of it. Their wrong was in the context of voluntary giving of possessions which everybody did but themselves. There is nothing punishable about that, it's just a sign of their lack of complete commitment to the cause. And you certainly can't think God would take their lives for such a withholding, but lying to the Holy Spirit is a great sin.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 715 by PaulK, posted 10-30-2018 5:33 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 727 by PaulK, posted 10-31-2018 1:06 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30041
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 722 of 863 (842415)
10-31-2018 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 714 by Percy
10-30-2018 5:18 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
I had already read the beginning of Act 5, and the end of Act 4 as well, when I asked you to quote the Bible passage where Ananias and Sapphira tell this lie. You still haven't done it, since Ananias never said a word before he "gave up the ghost." Only Sapphira lied.

But the narrator, the writer of the Book of Acts, Luke, and Peter, both say he'd lied, so just because Ananias himself says nothing at that point we know he lied. Unless you are calling Luke and Peter liars instead. Besides which, he DID "give up the ghost" as punishment for lying, and if he hadn't lied he wouldn't have lost his life for it.

I'm in effect making the same point as Ringo - people see what they want in the Bible, whether it is there or not.

Certainly seems to me that unbelievers do that a lot, but I can't see any motive whatever for a believer to "want" to see anything in particular in the Bible since the Bible is our source of knowledge of God.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 714 by Percy, posted 10-30-2018 5:18 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 724 by ringo, posted 10-31-2018 1:00 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 734 by Percy, posted 10-31-2018 3:31 PM Faith has responded
 Message 737 by ringo, posted 11-02-2018 12:23 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15597
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 723 of 863 (842417)
10-31-2018 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 719 by Faith
10-31-2018 11:27 AM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Faith writes:

It is clear from the fact that they had a right to their land to dispose of it however they wished that they couldn't be punished for holding back part of it, that makes no sense at all.


The only right they had to the land was under Roman law.

Faith writes:

They were in the wrong because everybody else was giving all their possessions but that isn't a punishable wrong, especially not punishable by the death penalty.


Whatever God deems punishable by the death penalty is punishable by the death penalty. Lot's wife got the death penalty for looking over her shoulder.

It is very plain from the text that Ananias and Sapphira were punished for lying AND for holding back. AND.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 719 by Faith, posted 10-31-2018 11:27 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 725 by Phat, posted 10-31-2018 1:00 PM ringo has responded
 Message 726 by Faith, posted 10-31-2018 1:02 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15597
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 724 of 863 (842418)
10-31-2018 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 722 by Faith
10-31-2018 11:50 AM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Faith writes:

I can't see any motive whatever for a believer to "want" to see anything in particular in the Bible


That would be the same motive that Ananias amd Sapphira had.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 722 by Faith, posted 10-31-2018 11:50 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11431
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 725 of 863 (842419)
10-31-2018 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 723 by ringo
10-31-2018 12:55 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Just the fact that they were punished by death for such an offense is reason enough to ignore and oppose that entire platform. I don't care who the leader is.

If someone told me that I would somehow be punished for not surrendering all that I owned, I would oppose such a person and platform and ideology 100%.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 723 by ringo, posted 10-31-2018 12:55 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 728 by ringo, posted 10-31-2018 1:06 PM Phat has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30041
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 726 of 863 (842420)
10-31-2018 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 723 by ringo
10-31-2018 12:55 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
That's ridiculous, ringo. Peter would not have talked about how he had complete control over his land, meaning the right to dispose of it at will, if he was doing anything wrong with respect to that fact. I suppose you'll just go on and on with the ridiculous argument and refuse to get the point though.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 723 by ringo, posted 10-31-2018 12:55 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 730 by ringo, posted 10-31-2018 1:11 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14490
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 727 of 863 (842421)
10-31-2018 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 721 by Faith
10-31-2018 11:44 AM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
quote:

Because it isn't a punishable wrong

Why isnt it ?

quote:

And since they had a right to dispose of their possessions as they pleased, which Peter very very clearly spells out, there is no wrong at all in holding back some of it.

And there you go repeating the same misrepresentation again. Peter clearly says that holding the money back WAS wrong. He says that they had control of the land and the money from its sale to emphasise that they COULD have given all the money to him.


5 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,

2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.

3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

quote:

And you certainly can't think God would take their lives for such a withholding, but lying to the Holy Spirit is a great sin.

From the actual text the lying to the Holy Spirit seems to mean Ananias holding back money (it doesnt mention Ananias saying anything) and Sapphira telling Peter that they had given all the money.


8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.

9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband


This message is a reply to:
 Message 721 by Faith, posted 10-31-2018 11:44 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15597
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 728 of 863 (842422)
10-31-2018 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 725 by Phat
10-31-2018 1:00 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Phat writes:

Just the fact that they were punished by death for such an offense is reason enough to ignore and oppose that entire platform. I don't care who the leader is.
If someone told me that I would somehow be punished for not surrendering all that I owned, I would oppose such a person and platform and ideology 100%.


I'm sure you would. You've been poisoned by right-wing politics to the extent that you would defy God. After all, the "platform" that you're so vehemently opposed to was instituted by Jesus and enforced byGod Himself.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 725 by Phat, posted 10-31-2018 1:00 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 729 by Phat, posted 10-31-2018 1:08 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11431
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 729 of 863 (842423)
10-31-2018 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 728 by ringo
10-31-2018 1:06 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
You've been poisoned by right-wing politics to the extent that you would defy God. After all, the "platform" that you're so vehemently opposed to was instituted by Jesus and enforced byGod Himself.
Says the guy who believes neither exists!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 728 by ringo, posted 10-31-2018 1:06 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 731 by ringo, posted 10-31-2018 1:16 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15597
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 730 of 863 (842424)
10-31-2018 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 726 by Faith
10-31-2018 1:02 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Faith writes:

Peter would not have talked about how he had complete control over his land, meaning the right to dispose of it at will, if he was doing anything wrong with respect to that fact.


And yet he did. What part of AND do you not understand?

The only relevance of the "right" to the land is to underline the fact that God's law supersedes Roman law.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 726 by Faith, posted 10-31-2018 1:02 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15597
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 731 of 863 (842425)
10-31-2018 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 729 by Phat
10-31-2018 1:08 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Phat writes:

Says the guy who believes neither exists!


My beliefs don't change the meaning of the English language. The Bible says what it says.

And Shakespeare said, "Methinks you and Faith protest too much." Deep down, I suspect that you can see the truth.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 729 by Phat, posted 10-31-2018 1:08 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 732 by Phat, posted 10-31-2018 1:40 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11431
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 732 of 863 (842427)
10-31-2018 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 731 by ringo
10-31-2018 1:16 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
ringo writes:

The Bible says what it says.

As does any book and any message. The problem, as you yourself would have accused us of, is when someone claims truth through one message over another.

ringo in message 678 writes:

...Well, that's exactly how science works. Nothing is accepted unless it can be verified.

So even if you can claim that this message says what it says, you have provided no reason why such a message should be accepted. There is no place on earth where all of the people are expected to surrender all that they have to a central governing authority. And though some societies have strived for this "ideal" they all fell apart. Whether this system would even work is highly questionable, given the reality of human nature. Moreover, few would want it. Many of us respect working for what we have and being responsible for our own survival and welfare. Granted I can say that limited social welfare is useful...Social Security is a case in point...but I paid into it in order to reap benefit from it.
ringo writes:

It's a theme: From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

The point of contention is whether the governing authority should have the right to force me to give. I believe that I myself should and will keep that right. I will continue to argue with Jesus because I sure won't convince you. You expect to have to fully support others (even lazy ones) and also expect others to support you (which is naive and idealistic). So we will never agree. If you were my neighbor I would always make sure you had enough to eat, but I'll not pay everything I have to clothe and house you and be mandatorily forced to do so.
Deep down, I suspect that you can see the truth.
I see the truth in the ideal. I see no truth in being forced to fork it over in reality.

You have been poisoned by Left Wing ideology. Far far left.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 731 by ringo, posted 10-31-2018 1:16 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 733 by ringo, posted 10-31-2018 2:45 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15597
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 733 of 863 (842452)
10-31-2018 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 732 by Phat
10-31-2018 1:40 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Phat writes:

The problem, as you yourself would have accused us of, is when someone claims truth through one message over another.


I don't claim "truth" of any message. I happen to agree with Jesus' message about helping each other - because it works. It makes the world a better place.

Phat writes:

So even if you can claim that this message says what it says, you have provided no reason why such a message should be accepted.


Where did I say it should be accepted? I do wonder why people would claim to accept Jesus when they reject His message.

Phat writes:

There is no place on earth where all of the people are expected to surrender all that they have to a central governing authority.


And I have suggested no such thing. The instruction is to believers and no central governing authority has been mentioned. Get your head out of the right-wing propaganda.

Phat writes:

The point of contention is whether the governing authority should have the right to force me to give.


No it isn't.

Phat writes:

. I see no truth in being forced to fork it over in reality.


Nobody has suggested you should be forced to do anything. At best that's a strawman; at worst, it's an outright lie.

Phat writes:

You have been poisoned by Left Wing ideology.


It's what the Bible says.

Phat writes:

Far far left.


You have no clue, do you?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 732 by Phat, posted 10-31-2018 1:40 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17879
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 734 of 863 (842454)
10-31-2018 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 722 by Faith
10-31-2018 11:50 AM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Faith writes:

I had already read the beginning of Act 5, and the end of Act 4 as well, when I asked you to quote the Bible passage where Ananias and Sapphira tell this lie. You still haven't done it, since Ananias never said a word before he "gave up the ghost." Only Sapphira lied.

But the narrator, the writer of the Book of Acts, Luke, and Peter, both say he'd lied,...

That's like saying both Charles Dickens and Sydney Carton said, "It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done." Peter is merely a character in Luke's tale, even Luke's authorship is of questionable provenance, and you cannot quote any Bible passage where Ananias tells a lie.

...so just because Ananias himself says nothing at that point we know he lied. Unless you are calling Luke and Peter liars instead.

I'm not calling anybody anything. I'm saying that much of the Bible is a work of fiction written for religious purposes, and that you're mistakenly claiming it says something that it does not.

Besides which, he DID "give up the ghost" as punishment for lying,...

Again, then quote where he lies.

...and if he hadn't lied he wouldn't have lost his life for it.

He only lost his life in the same sense that Sydney Carton lost his.

I'm in effect making the same point as Ringo - people see what they want in the Bible, whether it is there or not.

Certainly seems to me that unbelievers do that a lot, but I can't see any motive whatever for a believer to "want" to see anything in particular in the Bible since the Bible is our source of knowledge of God.

I can't speak to the motivations of any individual Christian's interpretation, but interpretations do certainly vary else there wouldn't be so many Christian sects. The interpretational differences are so severe that you don't even believe Catholics are Christian.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 722 by Faith, posted 10-31-2018 11:50 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 739 by Faith, posted 11-02-2018 7:43 PM Percy has responded

    
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2794
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 735 of 863 (842490)
11-01-2018 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 703 by Straggler
10-29-2018 5:37 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
How would one know it was God doing the commanding and not some form of psychosis?

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 703 by Straggler, posted 10-29-2018 5:37 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 736 by Straggler, posted 11-01-2018 5:21 PM 1.61803 has acknowledged this reply

  
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