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Author | Topic: Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
tangle writes: ... it may not be what you want to believe and it may not even be true, but it makes total sense. It's just as likely that it was invented ad hoc and grew from there. Either way, the very least likely is that the resurrection actually happened - that's magical nonsense spun into political opportunism. I agree more with GDR in that there was no real opportunism for the early believers. Perhaps later on for the Popes, there was most definitely certain political and power motivations, and I can agree that Christianity was exploited for this reason. As for the origins of the beliuef, there was in my analysis no reason to make stuff up. You are just biased against the possibility that there is something "magic" and "spiritual" since it does not pass your evidence tests. And like ringo, you only see believers as largely in denial and often "bonkers". I cant say that I blame you for throwing your hat in the ring with strict evidence. Perhaps the same brain disorder that led me to gamble also led me to "place my bets" on God.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 1.9
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Tangle writes: You just keep saying it makes sense, (which it doesn't), and don't respond to the points that I made as to why it doesn't make sense. Essentially you use the only argument against it is by saying you know it couldn't happen.
It makes total sense; it may not be what you want to believe and it may not even be true, but it makes total sense. It's just as likely that it was invented ad hoc and grew from there. Either way, the very least likely is that the resurection actually happened - that's magical nonsense spun into political oportunism. Tangle writes: I have explained that one. I'll do it again. You've already admitted that there are chunks of the bible that you can't explain - or explain away. And the major one - the return in the generation of the listeners - is the killer for you and yours. You have to shut your ears to that one.This is from Mark 13. quote:OK. Let’s go through this. First off Jesus talks about the destruction of the temple which is strictly an act of destruction with no reason to connect it with any end times theology. quote: He is saying here that there will be more men making messianic claims that will come and lead them in wars but telling them to not be deceived. He is saying however that this isn’t the end, presumably meaning the end of time.
quote:Here Jesus is saying that they will be severely persecuted for their message, that it will cause division in families, (much as we still see today in other religions in some parts of the world), but saying that ultimately they will receive justice for standing firm. As an aside at this point I’d just add that it shows once again it makes no sense to think that they would follow a crucified messiah into a life like that. quote:The abomination that causes desolation is a reference back to Daniel 11 vs 31. It says this: 31 His (the very human king of the north) armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation. This obviously can’t be about the end of time as what on earth would be the point of hiding out in the mountains? Why hope that it isn’t in winter? (Which obviously also makes clear that Jesus doesn’t know a specific time that this will take place.)
quote:Once again Jesus is warning them not to be taken in by false messiahs that will lead them into a war that will end in destruction. quote:Jesus often referred to Himself as the Son of Man. He says things like He says things like the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath in Matthew 12. He goes around forgiving sins. He is making a messianic claim. The point here though is that He is referring to Daniel 7. This is from Daniel 7. quote:When Mark talks about Jesus saying that He will be coming on the clouds He is NOT talking about end times NOT Him returning to Earth. He is talking about coming to the Father, the Ancient of Days, and being given everlasting dominion over the kingdom. This kingdom will be a kingdom that won’t be bounded by physical borders, and is eternal. quote:First off Jesus is saying that this time of war and desolation will end and things will get better again. Jesus knowing the revolutionary nature of the culture is saying that this time of war and desolation is coming sooner rather than later and even within that generation. And He was right when the revolt led primarily by Simon bar Giora was crushed in 70AD with the destruction of the Temple and much of Jerusalem. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I haven't hardly met any unbelievers and I've never discussed belief or religion with anybody in real life. Given that many in your family and circle of early friends were professing Christians, I see that what may have happened with you is that you found more genuine honesty and support from unbelievers whom you met later in life and that this became the basis for your reason that belief was most definitely not a must.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 1.9
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ringo writes: That misses the point. The point was that Jesus didn't believe in an inerrantist reading of the Scriptures either.
And What Jesus told you was not necessarily what Yahweh said either. It was another opinion. ringo writes: I agree that is a good point. As I have said before I am convinced of the truth of the story of the resurrection of Jesus. As a theist that frankly isn't that great a stretch. If one starts from an atheistic position then obviously it will simply sound nonsensical. (IMHO what really is a stretch is believing that we mindless evolved from mindless particles and mindless processes, but that is a different issue.) Nonsense. You can't decide a priori that Jesus was right about everything and everything else must be warped to fit. You have to take what Jesus taught in the context of what He learned. If I am correct in believing that the Father resurrected Jesus then I see it as a vindication of Christ's life and message. As a result I read the Bible in order to understand His life and message, and then I also look at how that message fits with my life and the world I live in. I find that it makes sense of my life and the world that no other religion or philosophy, including atheism does.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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PK writes: A missing body is just a missing body. But, more than that, we have no real evidence that anyone was interested in contradicting the story - even in the Bible. There is no crackdown on the people spreading the story. Matthew 28:12-15 writes:
And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers,Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept. And if this come to the governor's ears, we will persuade him, and secure you. So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Which is not much more believable than the dead bodies walking around - which nobody else happened to notice. In case you haven’t noticed, the Gospel of Matthew is not a reliable or trustworthy source.
If your evidence is likely fiction you don’t have much of a case. In fact the evidence against the resurrection - if rationally examined - I’d pretty convincing.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Is this what you call a skeptic? Don't inow who that is you refer to. The author of "Who Moved the Stone" was a Frank Morrison.
There was no need to remove a body - the stories about the Resurrection were written decades after the fact.... Ah well, unbelievers will make up reasons galore to continue not believing and believers will accept what is written and believe. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Might as well repeat what I just wrote to Tangle: those who don't want to believe will find all sorts of reasons not to, but believers will just believe what is written, and that is really all there is to it in the end.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Then the problem is clearly with those irrational people who want to believe. (Cue the usual false accusation)
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 1.9
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Faith writes: So here's just one New Testament writing among many you can pretend are lies while only your chosen passages are the true ones. Just a reminder that it isn't only in the Old Testament but also in the New Testament that there's a lot said about Him that doesn't square with your image of Him. quote:This quote doesn't give me as much of a problem as you might think. I'll just throw in this quote again by CS Lewis. quote:Lewis is clear in many of his books such as "The Great Divorce" that Hell is populated by those that are unable to give up a life that is based on self love, even at the expense of others. Can you imagine what this world would be like if all of humanity was based on the principle of selfish love, where people only cared for their neighbour when it somehow benefited themselves. IMHO what Paul writes here understates what that world would look be like. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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... the Gospels were all written by Jews as far as we know. Just FYI: Luke has always been understood to have been a Gentile.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
OK so you believe in a Hell of some sort for those who don't live the Christian life as you believe it is supposed to be lived, but the quote is about Jesus' Second Coming "in flaming fire" to take vengeance on those still living who don't know God or obey the gospel. Including those who are persecuting the believers in this case. So you really ought to accept that the judgment of the Amalekites was also just since they had also "troubled" God's people. And the Canaanites also "knew not God" so they too would have deserved their judgment. So there's no basis for the distinction you are making.
abe: Lewis is clear in many of his books such as "The Great Divorce" that Hell is populated by those that are unable to give up a life that is based on self love, even at the expense of others. Can you imagine what this world would be like if all of humanity was based on the principle of selfish love, where people only cared for their neighbour when it somehow benefited themselves. IMHO what Paul writes here understates what that world would look be like. Well, in a way that's what this world IS like since we're fallen, but since we are also made in the image of God it isn't total and we do have empathy for others. Even in the midst of basic selfishness. The love Jesus wants to make us into, however, is supernatural, there is no way anybody can be that way in this fallen state. It will only be possible in the world to come when we are perfected. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Phat writes: I agree more with GDR No shit! I wonder why?
in that there was no real opportunism for the early believers. Don't be so naive. Political opportunism has existed for as long as there's been human societies. But even without it, people who really believe things will do a lot of seemingly crazy things dictated by their beliefs - cf 9/11; what's in it for them? Heaven perhaps?
Perhaps later on for the Popes, there was most definitely certain political and power motivations, and I can agree that Christianity was exploited for this reason. As for the origins of the beliuef, there was in my analysis no reason to make stuff up. You are just biased against the possibility that there is something "magic" and "spiritual" since it does not pass your evidence tests. Belief is every reason to make stuff up. I'm certainly biased against magic and spiritual thinking because there is no evidence for any of it.
And like ringo, you only see believers as largely in denial and often "bonkers". Um, insane is nearer the mark for our latest entrants. Or maybe you think they're fully rational?
Perhaps the same brain disorder that led me to gamble also led me to "place my bets" on God. My pseudo-psychological analysis is that you have a addictive personality that latches onto simple solutions to your problems. It's bizarre - and wrong - that despite your gambling you think it's not chance.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The abomination that causes desolation is a reference back to Daniel 11 vs 31. It says this: 31 His (the very human king of the north) armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation. This obviously can’t be about the end of time as what on earth would be the point of hiding out in the mountains? Why hope that it isn’t in winter? (Which obviously also makes clear that Jesus doesn’t know a specific time that this will take place.) This is a case of scripture, Jesus Himself in this instance, blurring together two separate prophecies. The abomination of desolation you are talking about was set up in the temple in the time of the Maccabees by Antiochus Epiphanes, whom the Maccabees defeated, rescuing the temple. Since Jesus is now speaking prophetically a few hundred years after that time there is clearly another abomination of desolation yet to come, and so far it has not appeared in world history, so we look forward to it still, which brings us to the end of time. The rest is too much for me right now, we'll see what Tangle has to say about it. But you are certainly trusting the wrong theologians. Jesus is referring to the fall of the temple and the city in 70 AD but the language puts yet another destruction far into the future. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: About two hundred years, not a few hundred. And since the Abomination is associated with the destruction of the Herodian Temple it can hardly be in our future.
quote: No, it really doesn’t. If you read it in context it is all about the destruction of the Herodian Temple and the events surrounding it.
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