Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
7 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,816 Year: 3,073/9,624 Month: 918/1,588 Week: 101/223 Day: 12/17 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 886 of 1677 (843583)
11-19-2018 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 871 by Tangle
11-18-2018 11:52 AM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
tangle writes:
... it may not be what you want to believe and it may not even be true, but it makes total sense. It's just as likely that it was invented ad hoc and grew from there. Either way, the very least likely is that the resurrection actually happened - that's magical nonsense spun into political opportunism.
I agree more with GDR in that there was no real opportunism for the early believers. Perhaps later on for the Popes, there was most definitely certain political and power motivations, and I can agree that Christianity was exploited for this reason. As for the origins of the beliuef, there was in my analysis no reason to make stuff up. You are just biased against the possibility that there is something "magic" and "spiritual" since it does not pass your evidence tests.
And like ringo, you only see believers as largely in denial and often "bonkers". I cant say that I blame you for throwing your hat in the ring with strict evidence.
Perhaps the same brain disorder that led me to gamble also led me to "place my bets" on God.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 871 by Tangle, posted 11-18-2018 11:52 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 898 by Tangle, posted 11-19-2018 2:57 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 943 by Percy, posted 11-22-2018 8:52 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 887 of 1677 (843585)
11-19-2018 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 871 by Tangle
11-18-2018 11:52 AM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Tangle writes:
It makes total sense; it may not be what you want to believe and it may not even be true, but it makes total sense. It's just as likely that it was invented ad hoc and grew from there. Either way, the very least likely is that the resurection actually happened - that's magical nonsense spun into political oportunism.
You just keep saying it makes sense, (which it doesn't), and don't respond to the points that I made as to why it doesn't make sense. Essentially you use the only argument against it is by saying you know it couldn't happen.
Tangle writes:
You've already admitted that there are chunks of the bible that you can't explain - or explain away. And the major one - the return in the generation of the listeners - is the killer for you and yours. You have to shut your ears to that one.
I have explained that one. I'll do it again.
This is from Mark 13.
quote:
1 As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!
2 Do you see all these great buildings? replied Jesus. Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately,
OK. Let’s go through this. First off Jesus talks about the destruction of the temple which is strictly an act of destruction with no reason to connect it with any end times theology.
quote:
4 Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?
5 Jesus said to them: Watch out that no one deceives you.
6 Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many.
7 When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
8 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.
He is saying here that there will be more men making messianic claims that will come and lead them in wars but telling them to not be deceived. He is saying however that this isn’t the end, presumably meaning the end of time.
quote:
9 You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them.
10 And the gospel must first be preached to all nations.
11 Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.
12 Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death.
13 Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Here Jesus is saying that they will be severely persecuted for their message, that it will cause division in families, (much as we still see today in other religions in some parts of the world), but saying that ultimately they will receive justice for standing firm. As an aside at this point I’d just add that it shows once again it makes no sense to think that they would follow a crucified messiah into a life like that.
quote:
14 When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’standing where it does not belonglet the reader understandthen let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
15Let no one on the housetop go down or enter the house to take anything out.
16 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak.
17 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!
18 Pray that this will not take place in winter,
19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until nowand never to be equaled again.
20 If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.
The abomination that causes desolation is a reference back to Daniel 11 vs 31. It says this: 31 His (the very human king of the north) armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.
This obviously can’t be about the end of time as what on earth would be the point of hiding out in the mountains? Why hope that it isn’t in winter? (Which obviously also makes clear that Jesus doesn’t know a specific time that this will take place.)
quote:
21 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it.
22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.
Once again Jesus is warning them not to be taken in by false messiahs that will lead them into a war that will end in destruction.
quote:
24 But in those days, following that distress, ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;
25 the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
26 At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.
27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.
Jesus often referred to Himself as the Son of Man. He says things like He says things like the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath in Matthew 12. He goes around forgiving sins. He is making a messianic claim. The point here though is that He is referring to Daniel 7. This is from Daniel 7.
quote:
13 In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
When Mark talks about Jesus saying that He will be coming on the clouds He is NOT talking about end times NOT Him returning to Earth. He is talking about coming to the Father, the Ancient of Days, and being given everlasting dominion over the kingdom. This kingdom will be a kingdom that won’t be bounded by physical borders, and is eternal.
quote:
28 Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.
29 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door.
30Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
31Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
32 But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
First off Jesus is saying that this time of war and desolation will end and things will get better again. Jesus knowing the revolutionary nature of the culture is saying that this time of war and desolation is coming sooner rather than later and even within that generation. And He was right when the revolt led primarily by Simon bar Giora was crushed in 70AD with the destruction of the Temple and much of Jerusalem.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 871 by Tangle, posted 11-18-2018 11:52 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 899 by Faith, posted 11-19-2018 3:12 PM GDR has replied
 Message 904 by Tangle, posted 11-19-2018 4:06 PM GDR has replied
 Message 921 by Straggler, posted 11-20-2018 2:10 AM GDR has replied
 Message 945 by Percy, posted 11-22-2018 10:36 AM GDR has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 888 of 1677 (843586)
11-19-2018 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 885 by Phat
11-19-2018 1:57 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Phat writes:
Given that many in your family and circle of early friends were professing Christians, I see that what may have happened with you is that you found more genuine honesty and support from unbelievers whom you met later in life and that this became the basis for your reason that belief was most definitely not a must.
I haven't hardly met any unbelievers and I've never discussed belief or religion with anybody in real life.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 885 by Phat, posted 11-19-2018 1:57 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 889 of 1677 (843588)
11-19-2018 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 872 by ringo
11-18-2018 1:09 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
ringo writes:
And What Jesus told you was not necessarily what Yahweh said either. It was another opinion.
That misses the point. The point was that Jesus didn't believe in an inerrantist reading of the Scriptures either.
ringo writes:
Nonsense. You can't decide a priori that Jesus was right about everything and everything else must be warped to fit. You have to take what Jesus taught in the context of what He learned.
I agree that is a good point. As I have said before I am convinced of the truth of the story of the resurrection of Jesus. As a theist that frankly isn't that great a stretch. If one starts from an atheistic position then obviously it will simply sound nonsensical. (IMHO what really is a stretch is believing that we mindless evolved from mindless particles and mindless processes, but that is a different issue.)
If I am correct in believing that the Father resurrected Jesus then I see it as a vindication of Christ's life and message. As a result I read the Bible in order to understand His life and message, and then I also look at how that message fits with my life and the world I live in. I find that it makes sense of my life and the world that no other religion or philosophy, including atheism does.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 872 by ringo, posted 11-18-2018 1:09 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 928 by ringo, posted 11-20-2018 11:01 AM GDR has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 890 of 1677 (843589)
11-19-2018 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 878 by PaulK
11-19-2018 12:38 AM


evidence of resurrection
PK writes:
A missing body is just a missing body. But, more than that, we have no real evidence that anyone was interested in contradicting the story - even in the Bible. There is no crackdown on the people spreading the story.
Matthew 28:12-15 writes:
And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers,
Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept. And if this come to the governor's ears, we will persuade him, and secure you. So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 878 by PaulK, posted 11-19-2018 12:38 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 891 by PaulK, posted 11-19-2018 2:34 PM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 891 of 1677 (843590)
11-19-2018 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 890 by Faith
11-19-2018 2:29 PM


Re: evidence of resurrection
Which is not much more believable than the dead bodies walking around - which nobody else happened to notice. In case you haven’t noticed, the Gospel of Matthew is not a reliable or trustworthy source.
If your evidence is likely fiction you don’t have much of a case. In fact the evidence against the resurrection - if rationally examined - I’d pretty convincing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 890 by Faith, posted 11-19-2018 2:29 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 893 by Faith, posted 11-19-2018 2:36 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 892 of 1677 (843591)
11-19-2018 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 879 by Tangle
11-19-2018 3:25 AM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Is this what you call a skeptic?
Don't inow who that is you refer to. The author of "Who Moved the Stone" was a Frank Morrison.
There was no need to remove a body - the stories about the Resurrection were written decades after the fact....
Ah well, unbelievers will make up reasons galore to continue not believing and believers will accept what is written and believe.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 879 by Tangle, posted 11-19-2018 3:25 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 893 of 1677 (843592)
11-19-2018 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 891 by PaulK
11-19-2018 2:34 PM


Re: evidence of resurrection
Might as well repeat what I just wrote to Tangle: those who don't want to believe will find all sorts of reasons not to, but believers will just believe what is written, and that is really all there is to it in the end.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 891 by PaulK, posted 11-19-2018 2:34 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 894 by PaulK, posted 11-19-2018 2:39 PM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 894 of 1677 (843593)
11-19-2018 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 893 by Faith
11-19-2018 2:36 PM


Re: evidence of resurrection
quote:
those who don't want to believe will find all sorts of reasons not to, but believers will just believe what is written, and that is really all there is to it in the end.
Then the problem is clearly with those irrational people who want to believe.
(Cue the usual false accusation)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 893 by Faith, posted 11-19-2018 2:36 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 902 by Faith, posted 11-19-2018 3:29 PM PaulK has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 895 of 1677 (843594)
11-19-2018 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 877 by Faith
11-18-2018 7:27 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Faith writes:
So here's just one New Testament writing among many you can pretend are lies while only your chosen passages are the true ones. Just a reminder that it isn't only in the Old Testament but also in the New Testament that there's a lot said about Him that doesn't square with your image of Him.
quote:
2 Thessalonians 1:4-12 writes:
...we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day. Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
This quote doesn't give me as much of a problem as you might think. I'll just throw in this quote again by CS Lewis.
quote:
There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell.
Lewis is clear in many of his books such as "The Great Divorce" that Hell is populated by those that are unable to give up a life that is based on self love, even at the expense of others. Can you imagine what this world would be like if all of humanity was based on the principle of selfish love, where people only cared for their neighbour when it somehow benefited themselves. IMHO what Paul writes here understates what that world would look be like.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 877 by Faith, posted 11-18-2018 7:27 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 897 by Faith, posted 11-19-2018 2:53 PM GDR has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 896 of 1677 (843595)
11-19-2018 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 882 by GDR
11-19-2018 12:42 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
... the Gospels were all written by Jews as far as we know.
Just FYI: Luke has always been understood to have been a Gentile.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 882 by GDR, posted 11-19-2018 12:42 PM GDR has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 897 of 1677 (843596)
11-19-2018 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 895 by GDR
11-19-2018 2:41 PM


Jesus to return in flaming fire
OK so you believe in a Hell of some sort for those who don't live the Christian life as you believe it is supposed to be lived, but the quote is about Jesus' Second Coming "in flaming fire" to take vengeance on those still living who don't know God or obey the gospel. Including those who are persecuting the believers in this case. So you really ought to accept that the judgment of the Amalekites was also just since they had also "troubled" God's people. And the Canaanites also "knew not God" so they too would have deserved their judgment. So there's no basis for the distinction you are making.
abe:
Lewis is clear in many of his books such as "The Great Divorce" that Hell is populated by those that are unable to give up a life that is based on self love, even at the expense of others. Can you imagine what this world would be like if all of humanity was based on the principle of selfish love, where people only cared for their neighbour when it somehow benefited themselves. IMHO what Paul writes here understates what that world would look be like.
Well, in a way that's what this world IS like since we're fallen, but since we are also made in the image of God it isn't total and we do have empathy for others. Even in the midst of basic selfishness. The love Jesus wants to make us into, however, is supernatural, there is no way anybody can be that way in this fallen state. It will only be possible in the world to come when we are perfected.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 895 by GDR, posted 11-19-2018 2:41 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 901 by GDR, posted 11-19-2018 3:25 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 898 of 1677 (843598)
11-19-2018 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 886 by Phat
11-19-2018 2:03 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Phat writes:
I agree more with GDR
No shit! I wonder why?
in that there was no real opportunism for the early believers.
Don't be so naive. Political opportunism has existed for as long as there's been human societies. But even without it, people who really believe things will do a lot of seemingly crazy things dictated by their beliefs - cf 9/11; what's in it for them? Heaven perhaps?
Perhaps later on for the Popes, there was most definitely certain political and power motivations, and I can agree that Christianity was exploited for this reason. As for the origins of the beliuef, there was in my analysis no reason to make stuff up. You are just biased against the possibility that there is something "magic" and "spiritual" since it does not pass your evidence tests.
Belief is every reason to make stuff up.
I'm certainly biased against magic and spiritual thinking because there is no evidence for any of it.
And like ringo, you only see believers as largely in denial and often "bonkers".
Um, insane is nearer the mark for our latest entrants. Or maybe you think they're fully rational?
Perhaps the same brain disorder that led me to gamble also led me to "place my bets" on God.
My pseudo-psychological analysis is that you have a addictive personality that latches onto simple solutions to your problems. It's bizarre - and wrong - that despite your gambling you think it's not chance.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 886 by Phat, posted 11-19-2018 2:03 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 899 of 1677 (843600)
11-19-2018 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 887 by GDR
11-19-2018 2:07 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
The abomination that causes desolation is a reference back to Daniel 11 vs 31. It says this: 31 His (the very human king of the north) armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.
This obviously can’t be about the end of time as what on earth would be the point of hiding out in the mountains? Why hope that it isn’t in winter? (Which obviously also makes clear that Jesus doesn’t know a specific time that this will take place.)
This is a case of scripture, Jesus Himself in this instance, blurring together two separate prophecies. The abomination of desolation you are talking about was set up in the temple in the time of the Maccabees by Antiochus Epiphanes, whom the Maccabees defeated, rescuing the temple. Since Jesus is now speaking prophetically a few hundred years after that time there is clearly another abomination of desolation yet to come, and so far it has not appeared in world history, so we look forward to it still, which brings us to the end of time.
The rest is too much for me right now, we'll see what Tangle has to say about it. But you are certainly trusting the wrong theologians. Jesus is referring to the fall of the temple and the city in 70 AD but the language puts yet another destruction far into the future.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 887 by GDR, posted 11-19-2018 2:07 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 900 by PaulK, posted 11-19-2018 3:25 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 905 by GDR, posted 11-19-2018 4:24 PM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 900 of 1677 (843605)
11-19-2018 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 899 by Faith
11-19-2018 3:12 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
quote:
This is a case of scripture, Jesus Himself in this instance, blurring together two separate prophecies. The abomination of desolation you are talking about was set up in the temple in the time of the Maccabees by Antiochus Epiphanes, whom the Maccabees defeated, rescuing the temple. Since Jesus is now speaking prophetically a few hundred years after that time there is clearly another abomination of desolation yet to come, and so far it has not appeared in world history, so we look forward to it still, which brings us to the end of time.
About two hundred years, not a few hundred. And since the Abomination is associated with the destruction of the Herodian Temple it can hardly be in our future.
quote:
Jesus is referring to the fall of the temple and the city in 70 AD but the language puts yet another destruction far into the future.
No, it really doesn’t. If you read it in context it is all about the destruction of the Herodian Temple and the events surrounding it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 899 by Faith, posted 11-19-2018 3:12 PM Faith has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024