Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith

Because when the Bible was written, our modern scientific idea of evidence didn't exist. The New King James Version says, "faith is the (a)substance of things hoped for, the (b)evidence of things not seen," with the notes: So, ""faith is the realization of things hoped for, the confidence of things not seen."

OK I have some time again so I'll start with this. A couple of things on this that suggest that you're wrong. Firstly Jesus did not talk about end times theology as much as many people who believe like Faith does would think. His message was very much about not trying to defeat the Romans by having a military revolution. He is saying that when you go that route, which looked very likely that they would, that the Romans would do what they always do and part of that would be the destruction of the Temple. I'm not saying however, that He knew this supernaturally. This was His view of the political climate at the time.Secondly, if it was being written after 70AD then why would they include the part of about one stone not left on another. As has been pointed out, the western wall still stands. Certainly, if it was a post 70AD writing that wouldn't be there.Also, as I pointed out earlier why would Jesus tell them to head for the hills if it is the end of the world. It is pretty obvious that He is talking about an earthly battle. Why on Earth would they do that. The Gospels point out again and again the the disciples were still looking for Earthly power over their enemies. We can even see in the first chapter of Acts that they were still thinking that way. That was what they expected a messiah to do. It took time for the early followers to let the message sink in that this wasn't at all what Jesus was about.Nobody after the Maccabees were put to death did anyone suggest that Judas Maccabees was resurrected even though he talked about resurrection. Everyone assumed that it would be resurrection at the end of time. Nobody suggested that Simon bar Gioria was resurrected in 70 AD. Nobody suggested that Simon bar Kokhba was resurrected in 135 AD. All of these guys led revolts that had varying degrees of military success and were put to death by the Romans. They were simply regarded as failed messiahs and then people looked for another messiah to lead them. (The idea pretty much dies out after 135 AD however.)The idea of promoting a resurrected Jesus wasn't a route to power. It didn't gain them anything materially and it actually meant being isolated from much of their culture, it required them to give up on material things, and it put their life in danger. There is no motivation for them to do what you are suggesting. They obviously believed it. You can argue that they got it wrong, but frankly it would take very firm evidence for them to go down the road that they did.I would add that it also would take very firm evidence for Paul to completely turn around the way he did regardless of what happened on the road to Damascus.

You started the quote that you used at verse 29. You have to look at it all in context.

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1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 Do you see all these things? he asked. Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down. 3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. Tell us, they said, when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age? 4 Jesus answered: Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains. 9 Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. 15 So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’spoken of through the prophet Daniellet the reader understand 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until nowand never to be equaled again. 22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time. 26 So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. 29 Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30 Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. 32 Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that itis near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

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If this is about Jesus coming to Earth and bringing about the end of time then why would he tell people to hide out in the mountains, not return for their cloak, hope that it not happen in winter, not to take time to gather their possessions etc.? All of these only make sense if He is talking about a very earthly war.As far as Jesus coming is concerned He is obviously referring to Daniel 7 where one "like a Son of Man' comes on the cloud to the "Ancient of Days" He doesn't use the term "messiah" but "son of man" so that the Jews who were His audience would understand the reference. When the destruction happened then in a sense it vindicated Jesus by showing Him to be right and so they would understand that He was the fulfillment of the Daniel 7 prophesy. Nobody has their theology 100% correct including me. We all have to work things out for ourselves. My favourite NT scholar is NT Wright who has often said in lectures that about 1/3 of what he says is wrong, the problem being that he doesn't know which 1/3 it is. It isn't that the Gospels were written decades later but were "compiled" from the original sources decades later.I'd be interested in knowing what you think the political motivation would be. It would be like raising a following in 1942 in Holland suggesting that the best way to defeat the Nazis would be to love them, turn the other cheek, invite them into your homes, etc. Not really a good political move.

Not at all. Again, it is like saying that it is raining cats and dogs. It is something that our culture understands. With that language Jesus is obviously referring back to Isaiah 13. In Isaiah however it is talking about the defeat of the Babylonians. Jesus is saying that what the Jews are planning on doing is like what the Babylonians were doing to the Jews. He is denouncing the revolutionaries and telling them what is going to happen if they go ahead with a military revolution which all climaxed just less than 40 years later.

The problem is that if we look at what the words say in a 21st century context then we often miss the point. The point is what a 1st century Jew would understand by what is being said.Basically Christianity revolves around 2 things. Firstly that there is a theistic God who is a God of love, justice and humility and wants us to reflect that nature into the world. Secondly that God resurrected Jesus, which among other things confirms Jesus' life and message.

I suspect the idea of faith as evidence was as unusual for them as it is for us, and they certainly knew what evidence in the ordinary sense meant anyway. Faith is evidence for things that CAN'T be evidenced in any other way because they are invisible or otherwise something beyond our personal ability to experience. People here keep asking for ordinary physical evidence for nonphysical things but the Bible makes it clear that isn't going to happen. The visible evidence was given and witnessed by people whose witness and experience were reported and now all we have is believing or not believing what they said. There is a huge effort here to discredit them so grounds for belief are eliminated. But if you simply believe, as Jesus says we are to do, all sorts of hitherto unknown realities open up to us. Realities. Facts. Known only by faith and in no other way.Your version is OK : So, ""faith is the realization of things hoped for, the confidence of things not seen." But I do like "substance" and "evidence."

duplicateEdited by Faith, : No reason given.

But that's a false comparison. My own guess as to when the Rapture might occur has nothing to do with faith, it was just my own guess based on current events as many had been discussing them on Christian sites. The Rapture is yet to come and although we don't know when we have faith that it will certainly come because scripture says so. Nobody claims faith for our own guesswork, or at least nobody should. Again you are talking about things that have nothing to do with faith as the "evidence of things unseen" etc. Well, you might start by recognizing that you are misapplying the concept as I say above. Faith as described in the Bible will lead you to the reality of God, Heaven, angels and demons, miracles, and the promise of eternal life. Also a coming Rapture of believers, but not when it is to occur. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

What can't I explain? Sure the Bible says that God commanded the Israelites to commit genocide. I explain that by agreeing that the Bible was written by men often with personal agendas.I am not looking for a nice God, I am looking for truth even though I agree it isn't something that I "know" to be true.

The bible is riddled with contradictions, but I'm just going to quote right back what he actually says....you know the bit about the 'coming of the Son of Man (note capitals), stars falling from skies, 'all the people on earth mourn(ing) when they see the Son of Man coming on clouds of heaven with great glory etc.You can wriggle and squirm all you like, that is describing the second coming or it's nothing at all.

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For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. 29 Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30 Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

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Right, you all have to make things up that suits you. I agree. They were written decades later. Two of them are later copies of the first. The fourth is extreemly late and shows how emebellished the stories became. Compare Mark to Matthew in the passages above, Matthew has added all sorts of flowery stuff that condems it as fiction.Prior to the stories being written they were passed on through generations of a verbal games of telephone around campfires. The actual words are written in a language Jesus didn't even speak by authors we don't know from third, fourth, hundred removed hearsay. And THEN edited by an emperor for his own purposes and none of it has any independent third party corroboration. You couldn't find any worse evidence if you tried. This is naive. Why does Trump lie? The first part is to understand that most of it is fiction, the second is to understand that there were - as you pointed out - many attempts at the messiah thing around that time. People needed to believe that they would be delivered from their troubles. Movements start around such things and maryrs are very, very easily found. Movements are then exploited.If I get time, I'll put to you what Muslims believe abuut Jesus and what Jews believe about Jesus, but in the meantime I'll just ask you why those two branches of the same religious tree that have the same OT books and were in the same region at the same time do not believe that Jesus was ressurected and was the One.

I don't agree that the Gospels were that late however you may well be right that there were more gentile Christians than Jewish Christians at that point. You're right that we don't know. Matthew was obviously written by a Jew for Jews. It is generally believed that John and Mark were written by Jews and there is a difference on opinion as to whether Luke, who accompanied Paul was a Hellenized Jew. Jesus was very Jewish. Yes, he corrected, modified many Jewish laws and beliefs. As to what it meant to rebuild the Temple He completely revamped it, but it was all rooted in His Judaic beliefs and culture as far as I can see. I don't know I'm right. I believe it. To put it simply I use the cliche of "what would Jesus do(or say). All religions are based on humans trying to understand the nature of a deity and what that should means for their lives. Usually it is about how do we get a certain deity on our side so that we as individuals or cultures benefit from it. Sometimes it is about a caste system that sets up a hierarchy within the culture. Christianity essentially says that we are all equal under God and that it is about serving His creation. Certainly in many cases has been distorted, and often badly distorted, but that is the essence of Christianity as I understand it.There is no earthly motivation for the first Christians to make this stuff up. They may have been leaders in their very small group of followers but they were ostracized from culture and often from families. There was no financial benefit and in fact was the opposite. They had seen Jesus crucified and knew that they could suffer the same fate. Crucifixion was a humiliating way to die and yet they preached a crucified messiah. The Gospels are in fact rather critical the disciples which wouldn't enhance their standing in the Christian community. There is zero motivation to fabricate such an unlikely story. Paul din't believe it until after the event. That is the point. As a Jew, let alone a Pharisee, it would take a huge amount of evidence for him to believe that the resurrection was an historical event. The Gospels and more particularly Acts show that it didn't originate with Paul. Paul had to go to existing believers to formulate his beliefs. It just happens that we have retained more of what Paul wrote than we have of others aside from the Gospels. In reading the accounts he compilers don't see Jesus as a martyr although you certainly could define it that way. After the crucifixion His followers went into hiding and even denied Him in order to save their own necks. He was seen at that point, not as a martyr but as another failed messiah. Well we agree then that it didn't help them materially and can you explain how they would think that it would help them spiritually if they didn't actually believe it to be true. Considering the cost of what they were doing they would have to be pretty convinced that they had it right.

I once added up the converts described in the Gospels and the Book of Acts and arrived at a minimum of 30,000 JEWISH believers before the gospel went out the Gentiles. Three thousand Jews alone were converted by the disciples assembed in the Upper Room when the Holy Spirit fell on them so that figure of 1000 you found is bogus. Then Paul and the other apostles always preached first in the synagogues all over the Hellenized world of the time, and made their first converts there. It was some time before the Jews stopped listening to them and they began to concentrate on the Gentiles more exclusively. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Neither the Jews of the 1st century nor the Jews of any century up to the 21st have believed in a resurrected Jesus.

Well we can keep go around on this if you like. Here is what it says in Daniel 7.

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13 In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

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He is referring to this and the Isaiiah 13 where it says this:

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10 The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.

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It is all language that refers to great human tragedy and political upheaval. ..as does everyone. You have concluded that there isn't enough evidence for a deity so you come to your conclusion that such an entity doesn't exist. Neither of us know that we are right. They were compiled from earlier material and I believe that it is more likely that they used the same material rather than copying each other. Also you seem to agree that they are compilations from earlier material whether it be written or oral. It is hardly going to give them a sense of being delivered from their troubles if they didn't believe what they were saying was true. Yes, there were other messianic movements that ended when the leaders were put to death. Your points make absolutely zero sense. Interestingly enough the Quaran speaks about the virgin birth of Jesus, reveres Him as a prophet and says that He performed many miracles. It does not see as "Son of God" nor do they believe in His resurrection. The Jews do see him as a prophet. The Jews essentially see Jesus as a false prophet which in some ways is interesting as Jesus didn't see Himself as starting a new religion but as a reformer of Judaism.Obviously not everyone had contact with the resurrected Jesus and as it wasn't anything that they would have expected of a messianic movement. Also it would be accepted at a personal cost, it isn't at all surprising that the majority didn't accept it.

Sure, but that wasn't the point. The point was that a 1st century Jew would have understood the language of stars fallong etc.