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Author Topic:   Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith
Faith
Member
Posts: 30422
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1171 of 1422 (845072)
12-11-2018 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1155 by Tangle
12-10-2018 12:04 PM


Re: Back to The Rapture
If they were extraordinary, how come it failed?

I've misinterpreted God's communications before. It happens. Could still be about the Rapture, and close timing too only not as close as I was thinking.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1155 by Tangle, posted 12-10-2018 12:04 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1172 by Tangle, posted 12-11-2018 2:49 PM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6497
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 1172 of 1422 (845073)
12-11-2018 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1171 by Faith
12-11-2018 2:39 PM


Re: Back to The Rapture
Faith writes:

I've misinterpreted God's communications before. It happens.

I'd expect a God to be able to give you a message that you wouldn't misinterpret. Particularly as he'd know that you'd misinterpret it. But he is a very mysterious being, bathed in an enigma and surrounded by misinformation.

Recently He seemed to be guiding me to a particulary publication which I don't normally read, for a purpose I misunderstood. Once I figured it out it makes sense.

So long as you've rationalised it, that's fine. Funny how it keeps happening though.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1171 by Faith, posted 12-11-2018 2:39 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1173 by Faith, posted 12-11-2018 3:06 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30422
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1173 of 1422 (845075)
12-11-2018 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1172 by Tangle
12-11-2018 2:49 PM


Re: Back to The Rapture
Here's how it works. St. Francis of Assissi was sure God had given him the message "Rebuild My Church" which he took to mean he was to literally rebuild a specific church building that had fallen into ruin. Later he realized it was meant spiritually, that God was calling him to rebuild the spiritual Church which was being corrupted. Another that I'm sure of though nobody else has said so, is Madame Guyon's strong impression that Jesus wanted her to go to Geneva to deal with some problem in her Catholic Church there. When she got there she had only minor little jobs she could find to do. And I'm quite sure she misinterpreted Him, that He was actually telling her that the Protestant Reformation which was going strong in Geneva at the time, was the true path and she was wrong to continue in Catholicism.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1172 by Tangle, posted 12-11-2018 2:49 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1174 by PaulK, posted 12-11-2018 3:10 PM Faith has responded
 Message 1179 by Tangle, posted 12-11-2018 4:02 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 1181 by ringo, posted 12-12-2018 2:12 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14630
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1174 of 1422 (845076)
12-11-2018 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1173 by Faith
12-11-2018 3:06 PM


Re: Back to The Rapture
Wrong thread.

But I will point out that End Times prophecy is a total mess. That neither the Olivet Discourse, nor Revelation have room for a pre-Tribulation Rapture, that the popularity of the idea that the Rapture is coming soon, likely on Rosh Hashanah is reason enough for preachers to talk about it - and a preacher talking about things related to Rosh Hashanah when Rosh Hashanah is approaching is to do with Rosh Hashanah approaching.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1173 by Faith, posted 12-11-2018 3:06 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1175 by Faith, posted 12-11-2018 3:12 PM PaulK has not yet responded
 Message 1176 by Faith, posted 12-11-2018 3:23 PM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30422
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1175 of 1422 (845077)
12-11-2018 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1174 by PaulK
12-11-2018 3:10 PM


Re: Back to The Rapture
I'll accept that but I'd like to have a reference please.

But you're in the wrong thread aren't you?

It IS true, however, that they stopped persecuting witches because of the wisdom of their own leaders.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1174 by PaulK, posted 12-11-2018 3:10 PM PaulK has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30422
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 1176 of 1422 (845080)
12-11-2018 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1174 by PaulK
12-11-2018 3:10 PM


Re: Back to The Rapture
But I will point out that End Times prophecy is a total mess. That neither the Olivet Discourse, nor Revelation have room for a pre-Tribulation Rapture, that the popularity of the idea that the Rapture is coming soon, likely on Rosh Hashanah is reason enough for preachers to talk about it - and a preacher talking about things related to Rosh Hashanah when Rosh Hashanah is approaching is to do with Rosh Hashanah approaching.

Not every Rosh Hashanah is as good a prospect for the Rapture as this last one. There were many other indications in the timing of things that pointed particularly to this one, and there won't be another Rosh Hashanah like this one for many years to come.

I don't want to go back trhough all that stuff about the Rapture but as I recall Matthew 24 does indeed have plenty of room for the Pre Trib Rapture and there are also lots of clues in Revelation as well. Simply the fact that the Church is not mentioned in all the symbolic doings is a big clue. Instead we have the Jews, not the Church, as the Saints.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1174 by PaulK, posted 12-11-2018 3:10 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1177 by PaulK, posted 12-11-2018 3:36 PM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14630
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1177 of 1422 (845082)
12-11-2018 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1176 by Faith
12-11-2018 3:23 PM


Re: Back to The Rapture
quote:

Not every Rosh Hashanah is as good a prospect for the Rapture as this last one. There were many other indications in the timing of things that pointed particularly to this one, and there won't be another Rosh Hashanah like this one for many years to come.

There were ? I dont remember you mentioning any. I do remember seeing people predicting the Rapture every Rosh Hashanah for some years.

quote:

I don't want to go back trhough all that stuff about the Rapture but as I recall Matthew 24 does indeed have plenty of room for the Pre Trib Rapture and there are also lots of clues in Revelation as well.

No, they dont.

quote:

Simply the fact that the Church is not mentioned in all the symbolic doings is a big clue. Instead we have the Jews, not the Church, as the Saints.

Matthew 24 doesnt specify. The Revelation certainly mentions Christians. And the general Resurrection of Christians - which is supposed to be part of the Rapture doesnt occur until after the Milennium.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1176 by Faith, posted 12-11-2018 3:23 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1178 by Faith, posted 12-11-2018 3:54 PM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30422
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1178 of 1422 (845083)
12-11-2018 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1177 by PaulK
12-11-2018 3:36 PM


Re: Back to The Rapture
I didn't mention the other timing indicators others were mentioning concerning this year's Rosh Hashanah, only my own personal impressions.

No the Church is NOT mentioned in the SYMBOLIC doings in Revelation. It's the way the information is arranged in Matt 24 that indicates the Rapture as I recall and your interpretations of scripture are not mine, but as I said I don't want to get back into this now since I've done it before so I won't beyond these remarks.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1177 by PaulK, posted 12-11-2018 3:36 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1180 by PaulK, posted 12-11-2018 4:11 PM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6497
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 1179 of 1422 (845084)
12-11-2018 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1173 by Faith
12-11-2018 3:06 PM


Re: Back to The Rapture
Faith writes:

Here's how it works.

You just showed us that is doesn't work.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1173 by Faith, posted 12-11-2018 3:06 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14630
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1180 of 1422 (845085)
12-11-2018 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1178 by Faith
12-11-2018 3:54 PM


Re: Back to The Rapture
quote:

I didn't mention the other timing indicators others were mentioning concerning this year's Rosh Hashanah, only my own personal impressions.

Im sure they will come up with more next year. But if those timing indicators are so good why not mention them ?

quote:

No the Church is NOT mentioned in the SYMBOLIC doings in Revelation.

Really ? Because I suspect that it is.

quote:

It's the way the information is arranged in Matt 24 that indicates the Rapture as I recall and your interpretations of scripture are not mine,

No, the way the information is arranged does not indicate a pre-Tribulation Rapture in Matthew 24. And since you are a Biblical Inerrantist of course you disagree with the Bible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1178 by Faith, posted 12-11-2018 3:54 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1183 by Faith, posted 12-13-2018 6:39 PM PaulK has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15982
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(3)
Message 1181 of 1422 (845147)
12-12-2018 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1173 by Faith
12-11-2018 3:06 PM


Re: Back to The Rapture
Faith writes:

St. Francis of Assissi was sure God had given him the message "Rebuild My Church" which he took to mean he was to literally rebuild a specific church building that had fallen into ruin. Later he realized it was meant spiritually, that God was calling him to rebuild the spiritual Church which was being corrupted.


That's the perennial excuse, isn't it? When Adam and Eve didn't die that same day, it wasn't a physical death, it was a spiritual death. St Francis wasn't told to rebuild a physical church, he was told to rebuild a spiritual church.

Maybe the rapture is spiritual instead of physical. Maybe you're already gone.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1173 by Faith, posted 12-11-2018 3:06 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4726
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 1182 of 1422 (845246)
12-13-2018 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1110 by Percy
12-05-2018 1:02 PM


Sorry to be so slow getting back to you. Better late than never eh. 
Percy writes:

The interesting thing about mythmaking is that the details increase over time. You should include in your exegesis that the earliest Christian writings, the genuine epistles, have much less detail about Jesus's life than the later ones, the gospels.


If the second part of your statement is correct then the first part is wrong and the details didnt increase over time. Id also add that I dont concede that the epistles were the earliest Christian writings. Yes, they were written prior to the Gospels being compiled, but the Gospels were compiled from earlier material, Q or not, that would have been written prior to the epistles.
Percy writes:

If we assume the gospels are true and that eyewitnesses were the source of the information, how did they witness all these events (there must have been many eyewitnesses), and how was that information transmitted faithfully to the gospel writers? What about other source of information? For example, was it really proper to classify the Gospel of Peter as apocrypha, or does it tell us something important about a battle of ideas in the early church, with the idea winning out that it was the Romans carrying out the crucifixion rather the Jews under Herod Antipas's orders. John's mention of Herod Antipas where the other gospels do not is probably a nod toward the Gospel of Peter which must have had its advocates.


I agree that there would be multiple eye witnesses and that the accounts would have been both through the oral tradition and through written material. Luke puts it this way.
quote:
1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
As Luke says many have written up accounts and different individuals would have been privy to some information but not all of it. The different Gospel writers obviously used much of the same information and not others. Through all this we would expect there to be differences in the accounts, which again shows there isnt collusion involved.
John then ends his Gospel with this:
quote:
24 This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true. 25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.
He is making a claim about its fundamental accuracy and also that there was considerable information available indicating that his compilation consisted what he considered to be the highlights.
Percy writes:

If we assume the gospels are true and that eyewitnesses were the source of the information, how did they witness all these events (there must have been many eyewitnesses), and how was that information transmitted faithfully to the gospel writers? What about other source of information? For example, was it really proper to classify the Gospel of Peter as apocrypha, or does it tell us something important about a battle of ideas in the early church, with the idea winning out that it was the Romans carrying out the crucifixion rather the Jews under Herod Antipas's orders. John's mention of Herod Antipas where the other gospels do not is probably a nod toward the Gospel of Peter which must have had its advocates.

The Gospel of Peter is interesting as it is a Gospel that is clearly written from a docetic POV and disregards Jesus humanity. It clearly is written with an agenda that Jesus is God and is actually much more in line with how a 1st century Jew would fabricate the story of Jesus.
Peter does have Pilate involved but it has the final decision being made by Herod. However it is pretty consistent with this account in Matthew 27. I also agree that there were numerous disagreements in the early church which primarily centred around, not the crucifixion and resurrection accounts, but on how to deal with the Jewish laws for Gentiles. Of course the major issue was circumcision.
Percy writes:

If they believed in a messiah that would lead them in battle then they would have followed some other messiah, not Jesus. The power of Jesus's message was that he was leading them down a different more spiritual path, one with a greater chance of success than the combat-focused failures of the past.

I dont think so. Here was this messianic claimant who was performing miracles. They couldnt let go of their beliefs that the messiah would lead them against the Romans, and a miracle working leader might just do the trick. Also as far as we know Jesus was the only messianic claimant that had members of the under classes and even outcasts as followers. Here were these tax collectors and fisherman etc that saw themselves being elevated to princely positions. Their belief would be that the Romans would be overthrown, quite possibly by an act of God with possibly no military intervention even necessary.
When Jesus was crucified that dream ended but with the resurrection that hope was initially resurrected, (pun intended). After that they finally accepted the idea of the peaceful revolution against evil itself. Their weapon was Gods gift of love and not the sword or direct divine intervention by God as a means of eliminating Roman domination.
Percy writes:

Crucifixion was just one method employed by the Romans to carry out executions. Other methods were beheading, strangling, being cast from a great height, being buried alive, drowning and death by beast. Why would the priests assume that Pilate would choose crucifixion for a Jew preaching Jewish blasphemy who had committed no offense against the Romans? The gospels have the crowd choosing Jesus's method of punishment as they shouted "Crucify him." Would Pilate, the Roman prefect for Judea, really let the crowd dictate this?

Firstly it was the Jews crying for crucifixion and Pilate would acquiesce for a couple of reasons. Crucifixion wasnt simply a means of torture and death. It was so much more. It was making a statement that the person being crucified was beyond worthless and virtually sub human. A Roman citizen could not be crucified. The Jews were anxious to have Jesus completely discredited and crucifixion would fit the bill nicely. As Luke tells us in chap 19 the Jews also put pressure on Pilate by saying that Jesus claimed to be the Son of God. This was a term used by Roman emperors for themselves. They were saying that Jesus claimed to hold this position and not Caesar. Pilate would see this as a reason for crucifixion even if just for the idea he wouldnt want it to get back to Caesar that he hadnt taken firm action.
BTW, I keep using the term Jew. It is short hand for the group of Jews who essentially held power. Jesus was a Jew and all of his first followers were Jewish so I do not mean to disrespect Jewish people then or now in any way.
Percy writes:

That's all part of the drama of another aspect of this very common plotline, that God could overcome even the most demeaning method of execution.

So what? That doesnt tell us anything about the historical nature of the event.
Percy writes:

Regardless of the specifics of who you think copied from who, the large number of identical passages means there was a common source. If you grab a gospel synopsis and do a little logical connecting the dots you'll see that Mark had to have been a source for both Matthew and Luke, as well as some other document designated Q. Some Biblical scholars get their knickers all tied in a knot arguing about the remaining problems, but cross pollination also occurred between the gospels after they'd been written. What has come down to us as Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are not their original forms. They existed as independent documents for only a short while (maybe 30-50 years) before the various communities shared their versions with each other, and then there was considerable leakage between them before the final forms we have today emerged.
The simplistic view that "this gospel was written first, and then these other gospels were written next drawing upon the first, and so forth" is popular because it gives the illusion that the evolution of the final versions can be traced backward in time in detail, that we can know the origin of each phrase, even each word, but that's just not true. Unless we discover a lot more very ancient variants of the gospels, we'll just never know.

That is all pretty much conjecture and people then and today usually have agendas, regardless of which side of the issue they are on. My own belief is that the gospels were written separately but, at least in the case of the Synoptics, from largely the same original material.
Percy writes:

But for you the origin of the accounts is eyewitnesses. If the gospel authors were willing to alter eyewitness accounts then how can they be trusted at all? And if they'd alter eyewitness accounts then what greater freedoms might they have taken on 2nd and 3rd hand accounts?

I dont think that they did alter the eyewitness accounts except to highlight certain things and likely embellish things a bit. Id say that it is much more likely that there were relatively minor differences in the account just as there are in witnesses in an automobile accident. Just as investigators work to get at what actually happened, the first Christians did their best to provide accurate accounts, and then to understand what it all meant. We carry on that work today.

GDR writes:

As I have said several times my belief is based on believing in a good and loving God and that God resurrected Jesus. That is my starting point...

Percy writes:

But it can be your ending point, too. What you just stated seems more than sufficient.

Absolutely and for most Christians that is enough. If God resurrected Jesus then Jesus command to love our neigbour is complete for Christian belief. I just find theology to be fascinating, and so I find it stimulating to deep deeper into the theology of Christianity but I agree with you it isnt necessary.

Percy writes:

Science considers everything a natural process.

Which it should. However ultimately you wind up requiring an infinite string of processes to bring about existence as we know it. (Turtles all the way down.) However, as a deist that isnt your problem
Percy writes:

It wouldn't be accurate to say I reject the evidence of the Bible. It's more that I know what true evidence looks like, and I know that it is common in man's search for purpose in life to build religions that often include confabulous stories, and I know that all the world's religions can't be right and am certain that their widely variant tenets mean that they were not arrived at by evidence, and I know that the innate need to defend one's beliefs means that a post-facto search for evidence will invent it.
I'm in a much stronger position than you. If anyone were to say to me, "Your beliefs can't possibly be true because they are completely unsupported by evidence and you don't even have any scriptures," then I would freely concede all this and go on believing anyway because for me true belief comes from within, not from a book.

Yes I agree that all belief comes from within but that doesnt mean that belief cant be informed by a book. Id even say in my case that my belief came from the philosophical ideas of CS Lewis and then became more focused as I read the Bible and other writers.
Percy writes:

his seems pretty far out there as Christianity or Anglicanism. I still don't think your beliefs that religion is man-made and all the rest are Anglican.

Anglicanism like all religion is mankinds attempt to understand the nature of God and what that should mean to our lives, and Anglicanism itself continues to hammer differences in belief.
Incidentally Id forgotten about Matthew 26:56 concerning the accounts of the disciples deserting Him,where it reads Then all the disciples left Him and fled.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1110 by Percy, posted 12-05-2018 1:02 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1185 by Straggler, posted 12-14-2018 1:02 AM GDR has responded
 Message 1204 by Percy, posted 12-21-2018 7:34 AM GDR has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30422
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1183 of 1422 (845268)
12-13-2018 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1180 by PaulK
12-11-2018 4:11 PM


Re: Back to The Rapture
I didn't mention the other timing indicators others were mentioning concerning this year's Rosh Hashanah, only my own personal impressions.

Im sure they will come up with more next year. But if those timing indicators are so good why not mention them ?

Actually I may have mentioned them at some point, but just in passing, I don't know and I don't care. I was interested in my own personal experiences at the time. But as I recall, the major point was that 2018 was the 70th anniversary of the founding of the state of Israel, which occurred on May 14th, and that there were some significant number of days between May 14th and this year's Rosh Hashanah, which I can't remember but the number was thought to be important and it won't occur again for a long time, and of course the 70th anniversary won't occur again.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1180 by PaulK, posted 12-11-2018 4:11 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1184 by PaulK, posted 12-14-2018 12:45 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14630
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1184 of 1422 (845292)
12-14-2018 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1183 by Faith
12-13-2018 6:39 PM


Re: Back to The Rapture
quote:

Actually I may have mentioned them at some point, but just in passing, I don't know and I don't care. I was interested in my own personal experiences at the time.

In other words they were less important to you than a preacher talking about stuff related to Rosh Hashanah - when Rosh Hashanah is approaching. Cant have been very good.

quote:

But as I recall, the major point was that 2018 was the 70th anniversary of the founding of the state of Israel, which occurred on May 14th, and that there were some significant number of days between May 14th and this year's Rosh Hashanah, which I can't remember but the number was thought to be important and it won't occur again for a long time, and of course the 70th anniversary won't occur again.

And why would the 70th anniversary be important? Even the Rosh Hashanah timing is dubious but you wont find anything in prophecy that makes the 70th anniversary of the foundation of the modern state of Israel anything important.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1183 by Faith, posted 12-13-2018 6:39 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 1185 of 1422 (845294)
12-14-2018 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 1182 by GDR
12-13-2018 5:18 PM


Ascension
Youve spoken a fair bit about the crucifixion and resurrection based on eye witness accounts. But I wondered what you make of the ascension? Do you believe Jesus ressurected physical body actually rose up to heaven on a cloud? Do similar accounts of Augustus doing similar hold any water in your view?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1182 by GDR, posted 12-13-2018 5:18 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1186 by GDR, posted 12-14-2018 2:28 AM Straggler has responded

  
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