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Author Topic:   Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith
Percy
Member
Posts: 18119
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 1261 of 1432 (846146)
12-30-2018 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1258 by GDR
12-30-2018 10:16 AM


GDR writes:

AZPaul3 writes:

You think your god has miracles? Amazing what chemistry can do on its own in 4 billion years.

...and just why does that chemistry exist? Why do all these natural processes exist? Is it all blind chance or is there an intelligent root cause?

Well, come on then, follow up on what you believe. Go find the objective evidence of this intelligent root cause. Stop asking meaningless rhetorical questions like, "How else could all of creation have come about without an intelligent root cause?"

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1258 by GDR, posted 12-30-2018 10:16 AM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1262 by AdminPhat, posted 12-30-2018 1:06 PM Percy has responded

    
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1903
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1262 of 1432 (846147)
12-30-2018 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1261 by Percy
12-30-2018 11:47 AM


Ideas About A Refocused Topic
I think it would be a good time to close this thread, as it has veered far away from anything to do with Faiths Rapture or the absence thereof.

May I suggest that GDR start a new thread explaining why he believes that blind chance makes far less sense than belief. It seems to be our focus in these debates. What do you think, Percy? Any ideas on what you would like to see as you and GDR move forward in your ever expanding and detailed discussion?

Percy,to GDR writes:

Well, come on then, follow up on what you believe. Go find the objective evidence of this intelligent root cause. Stop asking meaningless rhetorical questions like, "How else could all of creation have come about without an intelligent root cause?"

Which direction shall it go? Evidence-based or belief alone?

Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.

Edited by AdminPhat, : added thought


  • Please stay on topic for a thread. Open a new thread for new topics.
  • Points should be supported with evidence and reasoned argumentation.
  • The sincerely held beliefs of other members deserve your respect. Please keep discussion civil. Argue the position, not the person.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 1261 by Percy, posted 12-30-2018 11:47 AM Percy has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1263 by Percy, posted 12-30-2018 1:21 PM AdminPhat has not yet responded

        
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 18119
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 3.0


    Message 1263 of 1432 (846149)
    12-30-2018 1:21 PM
    Reply to: Message 1262 by AdminPhat
    12-30-2018 1:06 PM


    Re: Ideas About A Refocused Topic
    While Faith's rapture now receives only occasional mention (given her current non-participation I guess one could say she was raptured from this thread), it is on my mind in every post, for it is the poster child for how made up ideas, those without real world evidence, fail to make accurate predictions about the real world. Failed predictions help us judge which ideas to discard.

    In my mind this thread has always been about evidence, and since I'm still discussing what constitutes evidence with GDR it still feels like the same thread to me. But I can understand that those focused more specifically on Faith's predicted rapture might see the current discussion as having left the topic, in which case I have no problem with closing the thread. If GDR would like to continue the discussion he could proposed a new thread over at Proposed New Topics. He could include responses to the latest replies to him in the thread proposal.

    --Percy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1262 by AdminPhat, posted 12-30-2018 1:06 PM AdminPhat has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1265 by Phat, posted 12-30-2018 1:27 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
     Message 1279 by GDR, posted 12-30-2018 6:55 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

        
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 6497
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 3.5


    (1)
    Message 1264 of 1432 (846150)
    12-30-2018 1:27 PM


    I think this thread should remain open until Faith's rapture is evident. I'm betting it's not now going to be 2018.

    But maybe 2019? Nah.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 11882
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 1265 of 1432 (846151)
    12-30-2018 1:27 PM
    Reply to: Message 1263 by Percy
    12-30-2018 1:21 PM


    Re: Ideas About A Refocused Topic
    I just had a good idea for one. Let me propose one. Everyone see if you like it.

    I shall call it Evidence For Belief.

    Now let me go compile it.

    I'll wait a few days before deciding to close this one or not. The arguments here are very well done...


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1263 by Percy, posted 12-30-2018 1:21 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 15986
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.4


    Message 1266 of 1432 (846155)
    12-30-2018 1:45 PM
    Reply to: Message 1258 by GDR
    12-30-2018 10:16 AM


    GDR writes:

    ...and just why does that chemistry exist? Why do all these natural processes exist?


    Emergent properties.

    The periodic table represents every possible arrangement of protons, neutrons and electrons. Each combination has emergent properties.

    On the other hand, why does God exist?


    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1258 by GDR, posted 12-30-2018 10:16 AM GDR has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1268 by Phat, posted 12-30-2018 2:46 PM ringo has responded
     Message 1283 by GDR, posted 12-30-2018 9:42 PM ringo has responded

      
    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 3633
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 3.6


    Message 1267 of 1432 (846157)
    12-30-2018 2:27 PM
    Reply to: Message 1258 by GDR
    12-30-2018 10:16 AM


    Is it all blind chance or is there an intelligent root cause?

    No evidence of any kind of intelligent agency at work but plenty of evidence for natural process so I think the answer is obvious.

    and just why does that chemistry exist?

    Because the materials, forces and processes exist.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1258 by GDR, posted 12-30-2018 10:16 AM GDR has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1282 by GDR, posted 12-30-2018 9:35 PM AZPaul3 has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 11882
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 1268 of 1432 (846158)
    12-30-2018 2:46 PM
    Reply to: Message 1266 by ringo
    12-30-2018 1:45 PM


    To count how much spare change you hand out.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1266 by ringo, posted 12-30-2018 1:45 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1269 by ringo, posted 12-30-2018 2:49 PM Phat has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 15986
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.4


    Message 1269 of 1432 (846159)
    12-30-2018 2:49 PM
    Reply to: Message 1268 by Phat
    12-30-2018 2:46 PM


    Phat writes:

    To count how much spare change you hand out


    That doesn't explain why He existed in the first place.

    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1268 by Phat, posted 12-30-2018 2:46 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1270 by Phat, posted 12-30-2018 2:56 PM ringo has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 11882
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 1270 of 1432 (846162)
    12-30-2018 2:56 PM
    Reply to: Message 1269 by ringo
    12-30-2018 2:49 PM


    Humans are hardwired to ask why.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1269 by ringo, posted 12-30-2018 2:49 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1271 by ringo, posted 12-30-2018 2:59 PM Phat has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 15986
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.4


    Message 1271 of 1432 (846163)
    12-30-2018 2:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 1270 by Phat
    12-30-2018 2:56 PM


    Phat writes:

    Humans are hardwired to ask why.


    That still doesn't explain why God existed.

    GDR asked why chemicals exist. Presumably, his answer is because God created them. So, the next obvious question is: Who created God?

    If you can just stop asking at God as "the first uncaused thing", then why not start at chemicals as the first uncaused thing?


    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1270 by Phat, posted 12-30-2018 2:56 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1272 by Phat, posted 12-30-2018 3:05 PM ringo has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 11882
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 1272 of 1432 (846164)
    12-30-2018 3:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 1271 by ringo
    12-30-2018 2:59 PM


    Knock yourself out
    You could i suppose. You can make up any first uncaused cause that you like. Humans have a strange imagination though. I think its true....ye shall be as gods.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1271 by ringo, posted 12-30-2018 2:59 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1273 by ringo, posted 12-30-2018 3:08 PM Phat has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 15986
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.4


    Message 1273 of 1432 (846165)
    12-30-2018 3:08 PM
    Reply to: Message 1272 by Phat
    12-30-2018 3:05 PM


    Re: Knock yourself out
    Phat writes:

    You can make up any first uncaused cause that you like.


    But chemicals are not made up. They exist objectively.

    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1272 by Phat, posted 12-30-2018 3:05 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1274 by Phat, posted 12-30-2018 3:20 PM ringo has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 11882
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 1274 of 1432 (846167)
    12-30-2018 3:20 PM
    Reply to: Message 1273 by ringo
    12-30-2018 3:08 PM


    Chemtrails
    The idea that creation creates itself is like the idea that ye shall be as gods. While it is true that we have an imagination and are creative, we are only really recreating what was created in the first place. there is no such thing as an original thought. You will then argue that the same applies to God. And you may also argue that there *could* be an original set of uncaused first chemicals.

    Im learning to anticipate your answers before you make them.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1273 by ringo, posted 12-30-2018 3:08 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1275 by ringo, posted 12-30-2018 3:35 PM Phat has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 15986
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.4


    Message 1275 of 1432 (846172)
    12-30-2018 3:35 PM
    Reply to: Message 1274 by Phat
    12-30-2018 3:20 PM


    Re: Chemtrails
    Phat writes:

    The idea that creation creates itself is like the idea that ye shall be as gods.


    Remember that God confirmed what the snake said: Adam and Eve DID become like gods.

    But that isn' t what we're talking about here. We're talking about whether an uncaused cause that actually exists makes more sense than a made-up uncaused cause.


    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1274 by Phat, posted 12-30-2018 3:20 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1276 by Phat, posted 12-30-2018 3:38 PM ringo has responded

      
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