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Author Topic:   Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith
Phat
Member
Posts: 11882
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1276 of 1432 (846173)
12-30-2018 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1275 by ringo
12-30-2018 3:35 PM


Re: Chemtrails
Evidentially your chemicals make more sense. Philosophically and belief-wise, not so much. Take this over to the new topic if you would. I want to focus all of our arguments in one thread concerning belief and evidence.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1275 by ringo, posted 12-30-2018 3:35 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1277 by ringo, posted 12-30-2018 3:51 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15986
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1277 of 1432 (846175)
12-30-2018 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1276 by Phat
12-30-2018 3:38 PM


Re: Chemtrails
Phat writes:

Evidentially your chemicals make more sense. Philosophically and belief-wise, not so much.


How can philosophy and belief "make more sense" than reality?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1276 by Phat, posted 12-30-2018 3:38 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1278 by Phat, posted 12-30-2018 3:58 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11882
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1278 of 1432 (846177)
12-30-2018 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1277 by ringo
12-30-2018 3:51 PM


Re: Chemtrails
http://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=msg&m=846176#m846176

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1277 by ringo, posted 12-30-2018 3:51 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4726
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 1279 of 1432 (846191)
12-30-2018 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1263 by Percy
12-30-2018 1:21 PM


Re: Ideas About A Refocused Topic
Percy writes:

In my mind this thread has always been about evidence, and since I'm still discussing what constitutes evidence with GDR it still feels like the same thread to me. But I can understand that those focused more specifically on Faith's predicted rapture might see the current discussion as having left the topic, in which case I have no problem with closing the thread. If GDR would like to continue the discussion he could proposed a new thread over at Proposed New Topics. He could include responses to the latest replies to him in the thread proposal.


Hi Percy
I have some time again. I see that Phat has already started a thread in that vein. I have a couple of other naysayers to report to and then I'll go over to Phat's thread.

Thanks again for all the time and effort you have put into this forum

Have a great 2019


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1263 by Percy, posted 12-30-2018 1:21 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4726
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 1280 of 1432 (846193)
12-30-2018 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1256 by Tangle
12-30-2018 3:57 AM


GDR writes:

Just take evolution on its own. It is an incredible process that not only has brought about an incredible variety of forms of life, but forms of life involved in creating new life. Does this really sound like a process from mindlessness?

Tangle writes:

Well we know the process is mindless because we can see it working and know how it works. We can see how unguided the process is by looking at what it produced and how many times it resulted in extinctions. Maybe god intended dinosaurs as his final product but messed up with the comet? Maybe H.sapiens is just another disposable organism on its way to extinction while god's real hope is yet to come?

Yes it can be shown how it works. We can't know if God intervenes in the process or not but I'm fine with the idea that He doesn't and leaves it to function naturally. However, once again you are confusing process with agency. It is no different than observing a robotic assembly line and claiming that the assembly line just exists without being intelligently designed and set in motion.

Tangle writes:

But your real problem is squaring the mechanism of evolution - a blind thug of a process, requiring death, disease, competition between species and life made possible only by consuming other life - with Jesus' message of love and redemption.

Well, to start with that is where faith plays a large role. I do believe in the Biblical message that all this ultimately does get put right in God's renewed universe.

I would add though that a life is a life and if a new species come along replacing a species that has become extinct the that isn't necessarily a bad thing and for that matter we now have species that are more evolved than were the dinosaurs.

Tangle writes:

It seems to me that it's your god that requires redemption for creating such a vile process in the first place. At least in Faith's story man's fall has human choice, in the real world it's your god that fell from grace by torturing his creation and requiring the created to worship its torturer in order for the torture to stop. If we do not, the torture will get infinitely worse..

The world can be a hard and difficult place for many of its inhabitants, but also there is considerable joy. The vast majority are not in a hurry to have it end.

I also believe that God has acknowledged the suffering and has given us as humans the job of being stewards of creation and alleviating the suffering. We can look at all the cases where we have failed in our vocation, but we can also look at advances in medicine; we can look at how quickly nations can respond to help those in the world when there has been a major tragedy; we can look at our soup kitchens; we can look at the aid agencies in the poorer nations and even in wealthier nations; and the list goes on and on.

Yes, God calls us to worship the creator, and we do that by living a life based on the Golden Rule regardless of our religious or non-religious beliefs.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1256 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2018 3:57 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1287 by Tangle, posted 12-31-2018 4:05 AM GDR has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4726
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 1281 of 1432 (846194)
12-30-2018 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1257 by AZPaul3
12-30-2018 8:19 AM


AZPaul3 writes:

You think your god has miracles? Amazing what chemistry can do on its own in 4 billion years.

Again, you are confusing process with agency. Why do these chemical processes exist? Why do any of the laws of nature exist?

Edited by GDR, : I hadn't realized I'd already answered your post earlier. Sorry


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1257 by AZPaul3, posted 12-30-2018 8:19 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4726
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 1282 of 1432 (846195)
12-30-2018 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1267 by AZPaul3
12-30-2018 2:27 PM


AZPaul3 writes:

No evidence of any kind of intelligent agency at work but plenty of evidence for natural process so I think the answer is obvious.

There are obviously natural processes at work, but what isn't obvious is why those natural processes exist in the first place.
GDR writes:

and just why does that chemistry exist?

AZPaul3 writes:

Because the materials, forces and processes exist.

Pretty circular reasoning. The processes exist because processes exist. Hmmmmm...

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1267 by AZPaul3, posted 12-30-2018 2:27 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1286 by AZPaul3, posted 12-31-2018 3:14 AM GDR has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4726
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 1283 of 1432 (846196)
12-30-2018 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1266 by ringo
12-30-2018 1:45 PM


GDR writes:

...and just why does that chemistry exist? Why do all these natural processes exist?

ringo writes:

Emergent properties.
The periodic table represents every possible arrangement of protons, neutrons and electrons. Each combination has emergent properties.

OK, and what was the process responsible for the emergent properties, and the process for.........back to the big bang which resulted from what process and so on and so on....

ringo writes:

On the other hand, why does God exist?

To work through the hearts and minds of His created creatures to steward and serve the creation. Yes, that is an article of faith.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1266 by ringo, posted 12-30-2018 1:45 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1284 by Straggler, posted 12-31-2018 1:32 AM GDR has responded
 Message 1288 by ringo, posted 12-31-2018 10:44 AM GDR has responded

    
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 1284 of 1432 (846198)
12-31-2018 1:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1283 by GDR
12-30-2018 9:42 PM


Why is there something rather than nothing?

If there is a god (aka the first something) he is asking himself that very question.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1283 by GDR, posted 12-30-2018 9:42 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1285 by GDR, posted 12-31-2018 1:50 AM Straggler has not yet responded
 Message 1289 by 1.61803, posted 12-31-2018 2:28 PM Straggler has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4726
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 1285 of 1432 (846199)
12-31-2018 1:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1284 by Straggler
12-31-2018 1:32 AM


Straggler writes:

Why is there something rather than nothing?
If there is a god (aka the first something) he is asking himself that very question.

Probably correct. I think we're a big disappointment.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1284 by Straggler, posted 12-31-2018 1:32 AM Straggler has not yet responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3633
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 1286 of 1432 (846203)
12-31-2018 3:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1282 by GDR
12-30-2018 9:35 PM


GDR writes:
and just why does that chemistry exist?

AZPaul3 writes:
Because the materials, forces and processes exist.

GDR writes:

Again, you are confusing process with agency.

You are trying to impose an agency onto something that doesn't exhibit/need one.

GDR writes:
Pretty circular reasoning. The processes exist because processes exist. Hmmmmm...

Purposely so. To me the question is as silly as my answer.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1282 by GDR, posted 12-30-2018 9:35 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1290 by GDR, posted 12-31-2018 2:53 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6497
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


(2)
Message 1287 of 1432 (846205)
12-31-2018 4:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1280 by GDR
12-30-2018 7:52 PM


GDR writes:

However, once again you are confusing process with agency. It is no different than observing a robotic assembly line and claiming that the assembly line just exists without being intelligently designed and set in motion.

And once again you demonstrate that you don't understand the concept of agency ie it requires an agent. You have no agent - the process does not require one nor does it have one. A random (mindless) process can not, by definition, be guided to produce a defined output. You can not have it both ways. It is either mindless (without agency) or mindful (with agency). Make up your mind.

Well, to start with that is where faith plays a large role. I do believe in the Biblical message that all this ultimately does get put right in God's renewed universe.

What a revolting idea - the ends justify the means, no matter how obscene the means. Your god sets up a system of pain, conflict and struggle so that it will be ok in the end? What a vile god you have invented.

I would add though that a life is a life and if a new species come along replacing a species that has become extinct the that isn't necessarily a bad thing and for that matter we now have species that are more evolved than were the dinosaurs.

There is no such thing as 'more evolved'. But that is besides the point, the question you're being asked is how can you reconcile a loveing god with such a destructive system? One that requires organisms to kill and consume other organisms simply to stay alive? One that regards organisms as totally dispensable?

The world can be a hard and difficult place for many of its inhabitants,

That's an understatement of enormous proportion.

but also there is considerable joy. The vast majority are not in a hurry to have it end.

Now you've leapt from a cosideration of life on earth generally over all evolved time for all species to the feelings of a species that's only just arrived. Does the strained fact that some humans might feel joy some times pay for the pain and suffering of all the others for all of that time? Why make a system that way? Does it really make sense to you?

I also believe that God has acknowledged the suffering and has given us as humans the job of being stewards of creation and alleviating the suffering.

Wow! God has acknowledged the suffering! Your god created the bloody suffering according to you.

So it's now all our problem? H.sapiens has only been around for 200,000 years and of that it's only been in the last few thousand years that we've developed the means to influence our environment at all. What a totally hopeless argument, a god - a GOD! - want us to sort out HIS mess? is that really the best you can do?

We can look at all the cases where we have failed in our vocation, but we can also look at advances in medicine; we can look at how quickly nations can respond to help those in the world when there has been a major tragedy; we can look at our soup kitchens; we can look at the aid agencies in the poorer nations and even in wealthier nations; and the list goes on and on.

Yeh, we're finally fighting back against the terrible situation we find ourselves in - one that you inexplicably believe your loving god creted for us. This is what Hitchens calls creating us sick and commanding us better. Utter nonsense.

Yes, God calls us to worship the creator, and we do that by living a life based on the Golden Rule regardless of our religious or non-religious beliefs.

Yes, the torturer command that we thank him for the pain he inflicts and not complain about it or he'll make it even worse. Nice guy, this god of yours.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1280 by GDR, posted 12-30-2018 7:52 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1292 by GDR, posted 12-31-2018 3:08 PM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15986
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1288 of 1432 (846215)
12-31-2018 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1283 by GDR
12-30-2018 9:42 PM


GDR writes:

OK, and what was the process responsible for the emergent properties, and the process for.........back to the big bang which resulted from what process and so on and so on....


You're only going back one step farther than I am. Tacking on an unevidenced God doesn't answer the question. Why does God exist?

GDR writes:

To work through the hearts and minds of His created creatures to steward and serve the creation.


Nope. That doesn't answer the question of why He existed before He created anything.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1283 by GDR, posted 12-30-2018 9:42 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1293 by GDR, posted 12-31-2018 3:16 PM ringo has responded

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2810
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 1289 of 1432 (846218)
12-31-2018 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1284 by Straggler
12-31-2018 1:32 AM


Straggler writes:

Why is there something rather than nothing?

Because something wants to exist. Otherwise it would be the other and we would not be pondering this. Thats my guess.

Of course it could be completely arbitrary as well.

According to some scientist something exist because it can not be any other way.
That is just how it is. There is no such thing as nothing.

Take your pick.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1284 by Straggler, posted 12-31-2018 1:32 AM Straggler has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4726
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 1290 of 1432 (846219)
12-31-2018 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1286 by AZPaul3
12-31-2018 3:14 AM


AZPaul3 writes:

You are trying to impose an agency onto something that doesn't exhibit/need one.

There has to be an agency for life as we know it, whether it be intelligent or not. The laws of physics and the universe as we perceive exist. Why?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1286 by AZPaul3, posted 12-31-2018 3:14 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1291 by PaulK, posted 12-31-2018 3:06 PM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 1295 by AZPaul3, posted 12-31-2018 8:12 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
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