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Author Topic:   The Atheist Experience
Phat
Member
Posts: 11447
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 16 of 100 (839570)
09-10-2018 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Tangle
09-10-2018 3:12 PM


Re: In Brief
When I referred to your squeeze, I meant your wife...I'm assuming you are married. For me, a woman...or a man, for that matter...simply is no replacement for knowing God...whereas you advocate simply living a good life, relaxing, going fishing and accepting the reality that you accept, thanks to evidence. My argument is that not all of reality can be explained through evidence. You obviously have been unimpressed with my (or any other) explanation, so stick around and help us get better at arguing our position.

Basically, my position is that GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen exists and is knowable through Jesus Christ. You counter this with the challenge to provide evidence that either is true. You further insist that the likely reason you rejected these claims earlier in life was that the stuff you(I) believe in is utterly daft. Which is a clear choice, by the way. You choose to require evidence for everything you accept. My evidence was subjective and internal. I can't expect you to use my evidence nor can I replicate it for others.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Tangle, posted 09-10-2018 3:12 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Tangle, posted 09-10-2018 3:58 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 19 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-10-2018 5:59 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 23 by Diomedes, posted 09-11-2018 9:48 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6264
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 17 of 100 (839572)
09-10-2018 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
09-10-2018 3:22 PM


Re: In Brief
Phat writes:

For me, a woman...or a man, for that matter...simply is no replacement for knowing God

But you don't know god. And you can't know god. Quite apart from the fact that the thing you call god doesn't exist, there is no way you could know a supernatural being if it did.

My argument is that not all of reality can be explained through evidence.

That's not an argument, it's a statement of belief. What part of reality can't be explained through evidence?

You obviously have been unimpressed with my (or any other) explanation, so stick around and help us get better at arguing our position.

I've never heard an argument, all I've ever heard is what you believe.

Basically, my position is that GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen exists and is knowable through Jesus Christ.

Yeh, I know. You keep telling us. That's as far as you get.

You counter this with the challenge to provide evidence that either is true.

Yeh, as explained, that's the way claims work. Those making them are required to prove them.

You further insist that the likely reason you rejected these claims earlier in life was that the stuff you(I) believe in is utterly daft. Which is a clear choice, by the way. You choose to require evidence for everything you accept.

Yup, I'm rational like that. But also as explained - you remember, blue chair in bedroom? - I don't need evidence to believe the mundane; just the crackpot crazy.

My evidence was subjective and internal. I can't expect you to use my evidence nor can I replicate it for others.

Maybe it would help if you stopped using the word 'evidence' when you're saying that things are subjective and impersonal it would help. That's not evidence of anything other than you personally believe something. Billions of people believe billions of dumb things, you don't believe most of them, but they do.

When I say things like that you just shrug, it doesn't seem to matter to you that what you believe has nothing to do with anything other that the time and place you where born. Just that little problem of yours, chance.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 09-10-2018 3:22 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 09-10-2018 8:50 PM Tangle has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7594
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


(2)
Message 18 of 100 (839580)
09-10-2018 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
09-05-2018 11:46 AM


Phat writes:

Has anyone watched this show? Comments??

I haven't watched the videos, but judging by the comments you quoted it is mainline atheism (that term makes me laugh).

The main point is that the burden of proof lies with theists. They are the ones who claim that gods exist, so it is up to them to evidence their existence. Atheists are just those who are unconvinced by the evidence that has been given.

This is where the history of western society kicks in. For the longest time it was just assumed that theists were right and atheists had to defend their position. In a recent poll people were asked if they would vote for a christian, mormon, muslim, atheist, and so on. They put atheists at the bottom, below muslims. Atheists have been looked down on by western society for a long time now, and this is where the social activism comes from.

For the most part, atheists already know why they don't believe. The reasons that another atheist may not believe really doesn't apply to them. For the most part, I (as an atheist) could care less what Dawkins writes in his books about religion and atheism. If anything, I have a much more accepting view of religion in society. I even have a brother and sister in law who are missionaries, and I am very proud of them. If there is anything that I enjoy reading in atheist literature it is the wit and snark, but that's about it.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 09-05-2018 11:46 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5600
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 19 of 100 (839595)
09-10-2018 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
09-10-2018 3:22 PM


Re: In Brief
You choose to require evidence for everything you accept. My evidence was subjective and internal. I can't expect you to use my evidence nor can I replicate it for others.

His erudite point though, Phat, is that you have no problem rejecting Islam or Scientology out of hand because there is nothing remotely substantive to even assume it let alone spend gobs and gobs of hours trying to either confirm or reject it. It's just... asinine. So is that a choice on your part to reject Islam or does it just not make a compelling argument and you move on with life?

For Tangle, Christianity just doesn't make a compelling enough argument to seriously entertain it. He might feel the same about Mithra. And Allah. Or the Vedic scriptures.

But he does, on the surface level, appear to be accurate about one thing... your agonizing over this stuff. Sometimes I wonder who you're actually trying to convince.... us... or yourself.

Looking back at my time in Christianity, I see how restless my mind was. It is utterly exhausting to be a Christian (at least one that actually attempts to live out their faith in earnest). There is no "peace" in it... just constant self-flagellation.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 09-10-2018 3:22 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Faith, posted 09-10-2018 10:34 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30079
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 20 of 100 (839600)
09-10-2018 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Tangle
09-10-2018 3:58 PM


Re: In Brief
Tangled writes:

But you don't know god. And you can't know god. Quite apart from the fact that the thing you call god doesn't exist, there is no way you could know a supernatural being if it did.

Scripture tells us that eternal life is knowing God, so if we have eternal life, meaning if we are saved we do know God. That's the whole point of being saved, to recover the communication with God that was lost at the Fall, when Adam and Eve disobeyed God and lost their spiritual connection with Him.

John 17:3 writes:

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Tangle, posted 09-10-2018 3:58 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Tangle, posted 09-11-2018 2:55 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 28 by Taq, posted 09-11-2018 12:09 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30079
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 21 of 100 (839604)
09-10-2018 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Hyroglyphx
09-10-2018 5:59 PM


Re: In Brief
Looking back at my time in Christianity, I see how restless my mind was. It is utterly exhausting to be a Christian (at least one that actually attempts to live out their faith in earnest). There is no "peace" in it... just constant self-flagellation.

I have a hard time grasping this idea. It sounds like "works-righteousness" or legalism, rather than salvation by faith. There are plenty of struggles in the Christian life, some of them due to misunderstanding it, some due to our own sin problems, some due to spiritual warfare with the satanic hordes, and some due to conflicts with the world with which we find ourselves increasingly at odds as we grow; and probably other causes I'm not thinking of. But I would think that once one has "tasted" God ("Oh taste as see that the Lord is good") nothing on earth could possibly compete.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-10-2018 5:59 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-12-2018 3:22 AM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6264
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(3)
Message 22 of 100 (839605)
09-11-2018 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Faith
09-10-2018 8:50 PM


Re: In Brief
Faith writes:

Scripture tells us that eternal life is knowing God, so if we have eternal life, meaning if we are saved we do know God. That's the whole point of being saved, to recover the communication with God that was lost at the Fall, when Adam and Eve disobeyed God and lost their spiritual connection with Him.

Scripture is man-made. Eternal life is a myth. The fall didn't happen. Adam and Eve never existed. The rapture is an invention. Your whole belief system is built on a childish myth. At least when you die you won't be disapointed to learn all this, you'll just be dead.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 09-10-2018 8:50 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 742
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 23 of 100 (839609)
09-11-2018 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
09-10-2018 3:22 PM


Re: In Brief
My argument is that not all of reality can be explained through evidence

This is an erroneous statement. If one can't demonstrate evidence of something, they cannot make any claims as to its existence. There are certainly things which we still don't understand from a scientific perspective. But the counter to that can't be that they are simply 'un-explainable'. It simply means we don't have the details on their function yet.

You choose to require evidence for everything you accept. My evidence was subjective and internal.

If evidence is subjective, it isn't technically evidence. It is just a subjective viewpoint. To draw an analogy, art is often subjective. Someone may look at a particular work of art and think it attractive while someone else may look at the same piece of art and not find it appealing. Subjective measures are not quantifiable and as such, cannot be utilized as any form of evidence.

If one could demonstrate a method whereby they can demonstrably demonstrate why a piece of art looks good, then that becomes objective. Not subjective.

I think part of the issue is you are attempting to conflate the two as equivalent. If something is objective, it by definition means that it is 'not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.'

However, if something is subjective, it is 'based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.'

Those two are not equivalent.

I don't think there is anything wrong with someone requiring actual, tangible evidence for a particular claim. It is how our whole society works. It's how our legal system functions. If you are viewing the world through your subjective lens, that is fine. But as stated, something being subjective versus being objective are two entirely different things.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 09-10-2018 3:22 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 09-11-2018 10:04 AM Diomedes has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11447
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 24 of 100 (839610)
09-11-2018 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Diomedes
09-11-2018 9:48 AM


Re: In Brief
The more that I think about it the more I realize that having a goal of getting everybody to believe in God is unrealistic.

Perhaps I do waste too much time in these arguments, but I feel that they sharpen my perspective. The church tells me to quit wasting time watching videos by atheists such as Matt Dillahunty, but it is inescapably within my nature. If I had simply spent the last years at a Christian Forum, I would have learned the belief and dogma quite well..(though I know it already) but I quite possibly would have been unaware of how the atheists think...which for some reason I feel compelled to learn.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Diomedes, posted 09-11-2018 9:48 AM Diomedes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Tangle, posted 09-11-2018 10:36 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 26 by Diomedes, posted 09-11-2018 10:37 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 27 by jar, posted 09-11-2018 11:46 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 29 by Taq, posted 09-11-2018 12:13 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6264
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 25 of 100 (839613)
09-11-2018 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
09-11-2018 10:04 AM


Re: In Brief
Phat writes:

The more that I think about it the more I realize that having a goal of getting everybody to believe in God is unrealistic.

Which god? Did you think it reasonable that a Hindu would change his mind, while you wouldn't?

but I quite possibly would have been unaware of how the atheists think

You consistently show that you still have no clue how atheists think. But I suppose you are at least aware of us now. I've met American believers that are stunned and terrified to hear that I'm an atheist. They literally ended the conversation and scurried away shocked. Weird and worrying people fundies.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 09-11-2018 10:04 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 742
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 26 of 100 (839614)
09-11-2018 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
09-11-2018 10:04 AM


Re: In Brief
The more that I think about it the more I realize that having a goal of getting everybody to believe in God is unrealistic.
Perhaps I do waste too much time in these arguments, but I feel that they sharpen my perspective. The church tells me to quit wasting time watching videos by atheists such as Matt Dillahunty, but it is inescapably within my nature. If I had simply spent the last years at a Christian Forum, I would have learned the belief and dogma quite well..(though I know it already) but I quite possibly would have been unaware of how the atheists think...which for some reason I feel compelled to learn.

Nothing wrong with being inquisitive Phat. I think that is a strength.

If I can provide a suggestion from my perspective: there is a fundamental demarcation between belief and knowledge. Religion often functions in the former while science operates in the latter. There are people on this forum which are not atheists but are still scientifically minded. As an additional example is my own mother, who has a PhD in biochemistry and was a university professor. Yet she is also a believer. But the difference with her that I noted is that she fully recognizes that the two are mutually distinct. As per the example on art I provided: one can still appreciate a piece of art even if it is by subjective measures. And just because someone else might not see that same piece of art the same way doesn't in anyway detract from your own experience.

Asking atheists how they view the world is fine. We are happy to share our thoughts. But the dialog will go better if we follow specific ground rules: i.e. if a measure is subjective, it is subjective. If it is objective (fact and data based), it is objective. But there isn't any point in trying to convince an individual via subjective evidence. Better to just discuss your thoughts but recognize that they are more feeling based as opposed to fact based.

I know religious individuals sometimes don't want to make that distinction. But it needs to be made for dialog to proceed.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 09-11-2018 10:04 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 27 of 100 (839615)
09-11-2018 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
09-11-2018 10:04 AM


Re: In Brief
Phat writes:

The church tells me to quit wasting time watching videos by atheists such as Matt Dillahunty, but it is inescapably within my nature.

And that is a sure sign of the Christian Cult of Ignorance, Dishonesty & Avoidance. If their dogma is so weak that it cannot stand scrutiny, if their position is so baseless that they need to tell folk to stop learning, then it is the time to clap the soles of your sandals together and walk away.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 09-11-2018 10:04 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7594
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 28 of 100 (839616)
09-11-2018 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Faith
09-10-2018 8:50 PM


Re: In Brief
Faith writes:

Scripture tells us that eternal life is knowing God, so if we have eternal life, meaning if we are saved we do know God.

Why many atheists remain unconvinced is that these are claims made by humans. Scripture was written by humans.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 09-10-2018 8:50 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Faith, posted 09-11-2018 1:25 PM Taq has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7594
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


(4)
Message 29 of 100 (839617)
09-11-2018 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
09-11-2018 10:04 AM


Re: In Brief
Phat writes:

The more that I think about it the more I realize that having a goal of getting everybody to believe in God is unrealistic.

In the name of putting yourself in atheist shoes, you may want to contemplate the chances of a missionary converting you to Islam or Hinduism. Their goal is the same as yours, and I would assume that they have very little chance of converting you. The way you feel towards other religions is probably similar to how atheists feel towards your religion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 09-11-2018 10:04 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30079
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 30 of 100 (839620)
09-11-2018 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Taq
09-11-2018 12:09 PM


Re: In Brief
hy many atheists remain unconvinced is that these are claims made by humans. Scripture was written by humans.

And when atheists do get converted it's often when they've come to recognize that they were wrong about this.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Taq, posted 09-11-2018 12:09 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Taq, posted 09-12-2018 6:06 PM Faith has responded

    
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