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Author Topic:   The Atheist Experience
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1290
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 61 of 100 (839781)
09-15-2018 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Tangle
09-15-2018 2:53 AM


Re: What differences between Christianity and Atheism
I said:
quote:

I don't really understand the distinction between "Agnostic" beliefs toward God and the description of "Atheistic" membership.

Tangle responded:

quote:

The only difference between an atheist and an agnostic is intellectual honesty. People either believe in god (or little green men) or they don't. If they don't know, then they do not believe. Belief is positive - like pregnancy - you've either got it or you ain't.

But an agnostic says they don't KNOW based on the evidence.

So an atheist is saying "I don't know" as opposed to "There is no God"?

Or an atheist simply says "I don't follow the religion"?

I always have trouble figuring out what a person means when terms are thrown around. Perhaps there should be some committee to iron out what the term should technically mean.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Tangle, posted 09-15-2018 2:53 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-15-2018 11:24 PM LamarkNewAge has responded
 Message 66 by Tangle, posted 09-16-2018 2:18 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1290
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 62 of 100 (839782)
09-15-2018 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Diomedes
09-15-2018 11:09 AM


Re: What differences between Christianity and Atheism
Diomedes said:

quote:

As I mentioned, atheism is merely a response to the question of 'do you believe in a god or gods?'. The question is not asking my opinion on a specific religion. Now if someone asked me if I believe that Jesus is the son of god, I would also answer no. But that answer wouldn't necessarily label me an atheist. Muslims would answer the question the same way.

So it is about belief and not evidence?

Diomedes then said:

quote:

I will state that I haven't found convincing evidence of the claims for a god. But more to the point, when reviewing the myriad of religions out there, I have found substantial counter-evidence to their claims. Such as visible evidence that there was no global flood, that we were not descended from Adam and Eve, that the Earth is not 6000 years old. And so forth.

Primeval mythology is undeniably the work of man, and based on little observation among the ancients.

But there does seem to be legitimate evidence of actual observations of "spirits" and "visions" and "voices", and the "Holy Books" aren't quite as easy to dismiss in all their details (and implications) as modern rationalizations rather simply make everything out to be.

But back to the evidence verses belief and people's self-described theo-ideological labels

Diomedes said:

quote:

Regarding atheist and agnosticism, the labels are actually somewhat distinct. Theism/atheism delves into beliefs while gnosticism/agnosticism speak of knowledge and certainty.

If one looks at it from a purely logical argument, then they actually operate in corollary to each other.

For example, someone can be an 'agnostic theist'. What this essentially means is that they have a belief in a deity, but they do not claim certainty with that belief. And in conjunction, an 'agnostic atheist' would be someone who does not believe in a deity but does not claim absolutely certainty that there isn't one.

The main rational for an agnostic stance in either direction is without testable mechanisms to leverage, there is no experiment that can be derived that can ascertain proof one way or the other.
Now there are some individuals who would label themselves as 'gnostic atheists'. Which in my opinion makes no sense since there isn't any test they can reference to claim absolutely certainty that their stance is accurate. The same can be said for a 'gnostic theist'. As per my dialog with Phat earlier, he acknowledged that his stance is subjective. Which means it is more based on emotions and feelings than evidence. Which is why it can't be measured or tested in any way.


Well, at least SOME people recognize the devil is in the details.

Not to many will put their self-described (via a label) "faith" to the test.

The really odd thing is that we all honestly "don't know".

We should all be forced to say "I don't know" or "We don't know".

quote:

One issue with individuals who say they are purely 'agnostic' is that they are actually making an error in logic with their view. A common statement mentioned is that they will state that 'the view that the existence of God, of the divine or the supernatural is unknown or unknowable'. This statement is actually logically invalid. It is ironically, actually making a claim about something (in this case god), and then ascribing a characteristic to that claim which makes any form of testing impossible. In common logical parlance, this would be a 'meaningless standard'. It is a claim that anyone can make and it is impossible to refute. You could replace god with Thor, Odin, The Loch Ness Monster, Cthulhu or The Flying Spaghetti Monster.

'the view that the existence of God, of the divine or the supernatural is unknown or unknowable'?

The last 2 words sound really dogmatic.

The "unknowable" part really is a discussion stopper.

There will be no need for any further testing in that case. Each man to his own "beliefs" and damn the person who asks for a discussion of evidence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Diomedes, posted 09-15-2018 11:09 AM Diomedes has not yet responded

    
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1906
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


(5)
Message 63 of 100 (839783)
09-15-2018 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by LamarkNewAge
09-15-2018 10:09 PM


Re: What differences between Christianity and Atheism
But an agnostic says they don't KNOW based on the evidence.

So an atheist is saying "I don't know" as opposed to "There is no God"?

Or an atheist simply says "I don't follow the religion"?

I always have trouble figuring out what a person means when terms are thrown around. Perhaps there should be some committee to iron out what the term should technically mean.

I always have trouble figuring out why people have to make something as simple as atheism into a complex, absolutely defined, totally fucking structured world view. Why do you care what happens in other people's minds?

My atheism is based on the complete lack of a shred of evidence of any supernatural entities, period. When I was around 12 it became obvious to me that the bible was refuted by evidence that even a kid could figure out. Bad shit happens to good people and good shit happens to bad people and God doesn't give a shit and is batshit crazy anyway.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-15-2018 10:09 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-16-2018 12:58 AM Tanypteryx has responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1290
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 64 of 100 (839785)
09-16-2018 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Tanypteryx
09-15-2018 11:24 PM


Re: What differences between Christianity and Atheism
quote:

I always have trouble figuring out why people have to make something as simple as atheism into a complex, absolutely defined, totally fucking structured world view. Why do you care what happens in other people's minds?

My atheism is based on the complete lack of a shred of evidence of any supernatural entities, period. When I was around 12 it became obvious to me that the bible was refuted by evidence that even a kid could figure out. Bad shit happens to good people and good shit happens to bad people and God doesn't give a shit and is batshit crazy anyway.


But the Biblical text had observations. Just like the Canaanite texts. And we need to put them to the test in every way we can think of. (Not just simply say they have lines about only bad people getting cursed and only good people getting blessings and prosperity).

Look at the issue of blood seemingly being described as the "soul". It led to the "Ecto Plasma" theory of past centuries.

What about the Canaanite fertility rites?

This is often described as sacred prostitution.

(More on what that has to do with scientific examination later)

But see this blog argue that it is false history to say Canaanites had sacred prostitution.

http://tessdawson.blogspot.com/...es-and-prostitutes-in.html

Here is an interesting bit from the blog.

quote:

) The sexually repressed Victorians allowed their own fascinations colored their theories, theories which have formed the basis for other scholarship. The Victorians developed and added to what they “knew” from biblical propaganda and Classical authors’ secondary accounts, then emphasized themes of fertility as represented by sexuality.11 In addition, the scholars of this time and into the early twentieth century supported the biblical notions of Canaanite religion as “depraved.”12 Yet we know from primary texts that the Canaanites had a sense of ethics similar to their Israelite and Phoenician descendants.13

4) These ideas on sacred sexuality as applied to ancient Canaanite culture came about before primary texts on Canaanite religion—written records from the rediscovered city of Ugarit—were excavated and translated.14 However, the first translations of these primary texts demonstrate a presupposition of these early concepts and biases. Early translators took into account the theories of sacred sexuality and fertility at the time and fished for evidence to prove the concept, which would verify Classic scholars and the Bible. This is bad scientific theory: one’s hypothesis should not presuppose a foregone conclusion and a scholar should not examine and interpret the evidence with a conclusion in mind.

5) Scholars rely on previous scholarship, and if the previous scholarship is problematic, it is incumbent upon the scholars to examine and resolve the problems. However a good dose of common assumption (the old “everybody knows...” and “it’s common knowledge...” argument) causes these problems to remain unexamined and often unknown. Without reexamination, scholars build on a house of cards. Sacred sex in Canaan has been a common assumption for so long that some scholars don’t bother to footnote where they get this idea, but when it is footnoted it’s from a combination of items 1-4. Any scholar who doesn’t do independent research often must rely on another scholar who likely makes use of items 1-5 and thus she unknowingly perpetuates the same misinformation as do the scholars who come after her.15

What we end up with is circular reasoning and a self-perpetuating historiographical mess.

Elusive Prostitutes and Sacred Marriages: Evidence?
The primary Canaanite material mentions one class of priests that has been labeled as temple prostitutes by later scholarship, and there is one ritual text that if read in a particular fashion is thought to reflect a heiros gamos

he “Sacred Prostitutes”: QedeshimThere’s a term in Ugaritic which also occurs in Hebrew: q-d-sh (÷ãù ), most often vocalized as qedesh, qodesh, qadish, or qedesh; also as q-d-sh-m ( ÷ãùí) the qedeshim (Hebrew) or qadishuma (Ugaritic)--the “-im” or “-uma” makes the word plural, the words qedeshah or qadishtu are the feminine singular forms of this word. This term is often translated as “hierodule,” i.e. “sacred prostitute.” The root word, q-d-sh translates as “holy, consecrated” and implies a sense of sacredness, of being set apart, and is used to identify clergy.16 To discredit polytheistic clergy, biblical scribes pair the word qadesh with the word zona, which means “prostitute.”17 Using the terms qadesh and zona together in a poetic technique called parallelism gives the impression that the terms are connected even if they are not: consider President G.W. Bush saying 9-11, Al Qaeda, and Iraq frequently together. The reason for the qadesh = zona equation originates from the biblical notion that a polytheist commits spiritual adultery by worshipping gods other than the chief god of Israel.18

All we know for certain about the qadish-priests comes from Canaanite-Ugaritic primary texts: the qadish-priests sing. They serve as cantors or as the choir, and possibly also as diviners.19 We have musical scores20 left behind from the city of Ugarit so I think it is unlikely that “sing” or “hymn” was a euphemism for sex. Nowhere and in no way do primary texts from Canaan associate qadish-priests with sacred sex.

In Ugaritic texts, the use of the word qadish or qadishuma is always masculine, thus we have no way of knowing whether this word includes females among this clergical class or not. Branching out beyond Canaan and into Mesopotamia, we have some evidence of qadishtu-priestesses: a qadishtu-priestess was of upper class; she could marry or be independent but she was typically disallowed from having children.21 She worked primarily as a midwife.22 A Mesopotamian unmarried naditu-priestess outranked the qadishtu-priestess; the naditu was expected to refrain from sex and she may have lived in a cloister.23 If the qadish-priests were serving in a primary capacity as sexual functionaries, then it’s likely that the scribes would have noted this in a more obvious way, as forthright as the Ugaritans were regarding sex and their deities.

http://tessdawson.blogspot.com/...es-and-prostitutes-in.html


Singing not screwing.

(I found this site, above, by putting CANAANITE TEXTS ON FERTILITY into a Bing search engine using Google Chrome)

It helps to understand what the old religions might actually be saying.

I just noticed that Marcus Vogel, and his polygraph stuff, has apparently been falsified.

Robert Anton Wilson book claim:

quote:

Marcel Vogel (whose corporation, Vogel Luminescence, has developed the red color used in fluorescent crayons, and the psychedelic colors popular in 1960s poster art) has been studying plant consciousness and vegetative "telepathy" for ten years now. In one experiment, Vogel and a group of psychologists tried concentrating on sexual imagery while a plant was wired up with a polygraph to reveal its electrochemical ("emotional"?) responses to their thoughts. The plant responded with the polygraph pattern typical of excitement. Vogel speculates that talking of sex could stir up in the atmosphere some sort of sexual energy, such as the "orgone" claimed by Dr. Wilhelm Reich. If this is true, the ancient fertility rites in which humans had sexual intercourse in freshly seeded fields might indeed have stimulated the fertility of the crops, and the shamans are not as naive as we like to think . Mescalito could be both an archetype of Jung's Collective Unconscious and an anthromorphized human translation of a persistent signal sent by the molecular intelligence of the vegetative world. Naturally, the ability to decode such orgonomic or neuro-electric signals would be eagerly sought by all shamans in societies dependent on agriculture. In other words, according to this model, Mescalito is a genetic signal in our collective unconscious, but activated only when certain molecular transmissions from the plant world are received.

Humans having sex to successfully stimulate plants?

False! (it seems anyway)

But what about human interaction in other ways?

Like the Canaanites perhaps SINGING TO PLANTS?

"playing music to plants polygraph" was put into the Bing search engine.

I found:

https://sciencing.com/...ic-affect-plant-growth-4596442.html

"plants grow faster with people" was put into Bing

I found:

https://www.thespruce.com/...you-talk-to-your-plants-3972298

http://www.personal.psu.edu/...our-plants-growseriously.html

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=200810300501...

The blog had questions about whether females had a role in Canaanite fertility rituals.

But singing seemed to be indicated by the evidence.

NOW ON TO ATHEISM.

Tanypteryx said:

quote:

Why do you care what happens in other people's minds?

My atheism is based on the complete lack of a shred of evidence of any supernatural entities, period. When I was around 12 it became obvious to me that the bible was refuted by evidence that even a kid could figure out. Bad shit happens to good people and good shit happens to bad people and God doesn't give a shit and is batshit crazy anyway.


I would respond that there are things we can't understand and haven't begun to understand.

But modern-day kids (whether 12 or 17) might not be able to grasp everything about the old religions of Canaan (like the Israelite religion for one).

The Israelite and Canaanite folks seem to have had some sort of spiritual experience.

There is evidence they at least had hallucinations (perhaps even on a mass level). And visions.

I just don't think that their witness somehow shoots down the entire notion of a higher power existing (before the creation of our universe or coming to be after the start).

You have this "Atheism" thing going based on some bad sermons you heard about good people prospering (which used parts of the ancient scriptures)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-15-2018 11:24 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-16-2018 1:23 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

    
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1906
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 65 of 100 (839786)
09-16-2018 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by LamarkNewAge
09-16-2018 12:58 AM


Re: What differences between Christianity and Atheism
quote:

I always have trouble figuring out why people have to make something as simple as atheism into a complex, absolutely defined, totally fucking structured world view. Why do you care what happens in other people's minds?
My atheism is based on the complete lack of a shred of evidence of any supernatural entities, period. When I was around 12 it became obvious to me that the bible was refuted by evidence that even a kid could figure out.

Bad shit happens to good people and good shit happens to bad people and God doesn't give a shit and is batshit crazy anyway.


But the Biblical text had observations. Just like the Canaanite texts. And we need to put them to the test in every way we can think of. (Not just simply say they have lines about only bad people getting cursed and only good people getting blessings and prosperity).

Sorry, I was very unclear in what I said. I meant to break that into 2 paragraphs. I wasn't saying "Bad shit happens to good people and good shit happens to bad people in the bible." I meant everywhere in real life and history and today.

Bad shit happens to good people and good shit happens to bad people all the time and we never see any god stop bad people from hurting good people.

I'm an atheist and I don't need you to explain it to me and I don't give a shit if you understand it or not.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-16-2018 12:58 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6393
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 66 of 100 (839788)
09-16-2018 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by LamarkNewAge
09-15-2018 10:09 PM


Re: What differences between Christianity and Atheism
LMNA writes:

But an agnostic says they don't KNOW based on the evidence.

No one KNOWS whether there is a god. Everyone is agnostic about god. People only KNOW whether they believe in one or not.

So an atheist is saying "I don't know" as opposed to "There is no God"?

No. An atheist is saying that they don't believe in god(s).

Or an atheist simply says "I don't follow the religion"?

No. An atheist is saying that they don't believe in god(s). (And - by extension - the religions they are attached to.)

I always have trouble figuring out what a person means when terms are thrown around. Perhaps there should be some committee to iron out what the term should technically mean.

Agnosticism is a linguistic invention designed to obfuscate a lack of belief so as to make it acceptable in polite Victorian company. There are believers and non-believers, those that say they're agnostic, by definition, are not believers.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-15-2018 10:09 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 09-16-2018 9:33 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30216
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 67 of 100 (839793)
09-16-2018 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Tangle
09-16-2018 2:18 AM


Re: What differences between Christianity and Atheism
Agnosticism is a linguistic invention designed to obfuscate a lack of belief so as to make it acceptable in polite Victorian company. There are believers and non-believers, those that say they're agnostic, by definition, are not believers.

Sort of, and that's how they are viewed in Christian theology too: your are an atheist if you aren't a believer, period. But I think some people are truly on the fence, not having any clear reason to believe but not being quite ready to throw away the idea altogether either.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Tangle, posted 09-16-2018 2:18 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Tangle, posted 09-16-2018 9:48 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6393
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 68 of 100 (839794)
09-16-2018 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Faith
09-16-2018 9:33 AM


Re: What differences between Christianity and Atheism
Faith writes:

But I think some people are truly on the fence, not having any clear reason to believe but not being quite ready to throw away the idea altogether either.

Sure, that describes most 'Christians' in the UK.

But belief is binary; if you don't know whether you believe or not, then you can't be a believer. People that believe, know that they believe. You can't not know that you believe in something.
And if you're not a believer, you're an atheist. By definition.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 09-16-2018 9:33 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Phat, posted 09-16-2018 11:31 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 75 by nwr, posted 09-17-2018 12:09 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11632
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


(1)
Message 69 of 100 (839796)
09-16-2018 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Tangle
09-16-2018 9:48 AM


Re: What differences between Christianity and Atheism
if you don't know whether you believe or not, then you can't be a believer. People that believe, know that they believe. You can't not know that you believe in something.
That's the clearest that you have explained it. I can't know that I know since knowledge of such concepts is impossible. I *can* know that I believe...even though you think its all made up stories and that I would do better to relax and go fishing!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Tangle, posted 09-16-2018 9:48 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Tangle, posted 09-16-2018 11:38 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6393
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


(2)
Message 70 of 100 (839799)
09-16-2018 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Phat
09-16-2018 11:31 AM


Re: What differences between Christianity and Atheism
Phat writes:

I *can* know that I believe...even though you think its all made up stories and that I would do better to relax and go fishing!

You got it, now get off your knees and go fishing.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Phat, posted 09-16-2018 11:31 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15774
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 71 of 100 (839801)
09-16-2018 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Phat
09-15-2018 5:03 PM


Re: What differences between Christianity and Atheism
Phat writes:

I trust my intuition.


You shouldn't.

Phat writes:

You don't trust yours and need science to give you a reason to move forward.


Nobody should trust their own intuition. We ALL need confirmation. We often see things and hear things and intuit things that are not real. That's why one of the most common phrases is, "Did you see that?"

I asked you five questions and you answered one. Where does your intuition stand on the other four?


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Phat, posted 09-15-2018 5:03 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Phat, posted 09-16-2018 4:00 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11632
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 72 of 100 (839811)
09-16-2018 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by ringo
09-16-2018 2:11 PM


Re: What differences between Christianity and Atheism
What does that mean?
It means I trust what is comfortable. I trust what feels right. I don't like cognitive dissonance.

How do you distinguish "your own experience" from wishful thinking?
Very carefully. I am well aware that wishful thinking is common in spiritual beliefs...but at the end of the day, it seems rational to believe in a friendly ghost rather than a hostile one. You would take it a step further and simply believe in verifiable reality rather than take the risk that any and all ghosts were illusions. I, on the other hand, find comfort in belief. If it ever became more trouble and pain than it was worth, I too might become an atheist...though I doubt I would feel happy without a Parental Deity type figure.

What if there was a scientific paper that showed you were not being mindful? Would you accept it?
One of my goals is to become more mindful. This does not interfere with my belief except in regards to wishful thinking and fantasy vs reality. And again, how can I always trust reality? Part of me holds out for mystery and surprise. Perhaps it is one root of why I gambled.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by ringo, posted 09-16-2018 2:11 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by ringo, posted 09-16-2018 4:14 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15774
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 73 of 100 (839815)
09-16-2018 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Phat
09-16-2018 4:00 PM


Re: What differences between Christianity and Atheism
Phat writes:

It means I trust what is comfortable. I trust what feels right. I don't like cognitive dissonance.


Comfort is not a cure for cognitive dissonance.

Phat writes:

it seems rational to believe in a friendly ghost rather than a hostile one.


Again, that seems more like a comfortable idea than a rational one.

Phat writes:

You would take it a step further and simply believe in verifiable reality rather than take the risk that any and all ghosts were illusions.


How is that a risk?

Phat writes:

And again, how can I always trust reality?


How can you trust anything BUT reality?

Phat writes:

Part of me holds out for mystery and surprise.


You can have all the mystery and surprise you want as long as it doesn't interfere with reality.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Phat, posted 09-16-2018 4:00 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Phat, posted 09-16-2018 4:40 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11632
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 74 of 100 (839816)
09-16-2018 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by ringo
09-16-2018 4:14 PM


Re: What differences between Christianity and Atheism
You can have all the mystery and surprise you want as long as it doesn't interfere with reality.
Do you think that belief in God interferes with reality?
Must it or merely can it?

I think that for me, when I embraced belief it became subjectively real.

Does unevidenced belief equate to wishful thinking? Is subjective evidence allowable as evidence in the court of public opinion?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by ringo, posted 09-16-2018 4:14 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by ringo, posted 09-17-2018 11:49 AM Phat has responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5584
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 75 of 100 (839841)
09-17-2018 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Tangle
09-16-2018 9:48 AM


Re: What differences between Christianity and Atheism
But belief is binary;

It isn't. There can be degrees of belief.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Tangle, posted 09-16-2018 9:48 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Tangle, posted 09-17-2018 2:50 AM nwr has acknowledged this reply

  
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