Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 90 (8876 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 12-15-2018 11:10 PM
251 online now:
AZPaul3, Dr Adequate, DrJones* (3 members, 248 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Bill Holbert
Post Volume:
Total: 844,187 Year: 19,010/29,783 Month: 955/2,043 Week: 507/386 Day: 85/79 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
2
345Next
Author Topic:   The God Of Sex
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1897
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 16 of 63 (840551)
10-02-2018 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Capt Stormfield
10-01-2018 11:52 PM


Respect Is Earned And Also Expected At EVC
Capt writes:

Respect is earned, Faith.

You are making this personal. Please stop or there will be suspensions.

  • Please stay on topic for a thread. Open a new thread for new topics.
  • Points should be supported with evidence and reasoned argumentation.
  • The sincerely held beliefs of other members deserve your respect. Please keep discussion civil. Argue the position, not the person.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 13 by Capt Stormfield, posted 10-01-2018 11:52 PM Capt Stormfield has not yet responded

        
    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 30216
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 17 of 63 (840554)
    10-02-2018 6:12 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
    09-30-2018 4:11 PM


    Back to the topic
    Phat, I really did want to know what you consider to be an "eye opener" about this book. I'm familiar with Peter Jones, have a lot of his books, including this one though I haven't read it because it is still in storage after moving last Fall.

    I suspect it isn't much about Old Testament law as others on the thread are claiming, but I really don't know. I read the part of it you linked but didn't really get much out of it, should probably read it again though you could spare me by just telling me what you get out of it.

    By the way, it is not right for a Christian to call Christians "homophobic." That is Political Correctness, in other words a term from Cultural Marxism designed for character assassination and otherwise meaningless. Homosexual acts are sin according to the Bible so if we obey God we don't treat them as normal sexual options, but that doesn't deserve the ridiculous epithet "homophobia." In iother words, it's a species of sin, and since we are all sinners in one way or another it certainly does not justify any kind of mistreatment of homosexuals as people.

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


    He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

    2Cr 10:4-5 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God...

    Political Correctness is Cultural Marxism

    If fascism comes to America it will be in the form of liberalism -Ronald Reagan


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Phat, posted 09-30-2018 4:11 PM Phat has not yet responded

        
    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 30216
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 18 of 63 (840555)
    10-02-2018 6:20 AM


    correction of fact
    The discussion about rape in the OT is just the usual attempt to malign Christian belief, lacking all sense of cultural context etc., and I didn't take it seriously enough to check out the references. But afterward I did go look up some of the references to rape in the Bible and see that I got some facts wrong: if the woman is raped in the CITY she's expected to cry out because she could be heard there, but in the country nobody could hear her. In that case the man is punished for raping her but I didn't find out how the facts were established. I should just not answer these accusations at all I guess.

    Here's a reference though I haven't read it thoroughly.
    https://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-rape.html

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


    Replies to this message:
     Message 19 by Genomicus, posted 10-02-2018 8:41 PM Faith has responded
     Message 24 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-03-2018 1:04 AM Faith has responded

        
    Genomicus
    Member
    Posts: 852
    Joined: 02-15-2012


    Message 19 of 63 (840657)
    10-02-2018 8:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 18 by Faith
    10-02-2018 6:20 AM


    Re: correction of fact
    if the woman is raped in the CITY she's expected to cry out because she could be heard there, but in the country nobody could hear her.

    That's some rather twisted thinking that belies the realities of rape. There's no good reason to assume a woman could be heard in the city -- e.g., say she's sexually assaulted at a party with loud music -- any more than in the countryside. Not that I would expect the OT to capture the reality of rape very well, given its disturbingly patriarchal origins.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 18 by Faith, posted 10-02-2018 6:20 AM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 20 by Faith, posted 10-02-2018 8:44 PM Genomicus has responded

      
    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 30216
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 20 of 63 (840658)
    10-02-2018 8:44 PM
    Reply to: Message 19 by Genomicus
    10-02-2018 8:41 PM


    Re: correction of fact
    We're talking ancient Israel here, not a modern city. Not much likelihood of a party with loud music. Given the culture of the times there is a lot of focus on justice for the rape victim.

    And the context is that she'd more likely be heard where there are lots of people around than in the country where there aren't. Given no loud music.

    And no woman would be alone at a party in ancient Israel anyway.

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 19 by Genomicus, posted 10-02-2018 8:41 PM Genomicus has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 21 by Genomicus, posted 10-02-2018 9:06 PM Faith has responded
     Message 22 by Genomicus, posted 10-02-2018 9:07 PM Faith has not yet responded
     Message 23 by PaulK, posted 10-03-2018 12:13 AM Faith has not yet responded

        
    Genomicus
    Member
    Posts: 852
    Joined: 02-15-2012


    Message 21 of 63 (840659)
    10-02-2018 9:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 20 by Faith
    10-02-2018 8:44 PM


    Re: correction of fact
    Given the culture of the times there is a lot of focus on justice for the rape victim.

    Not at all. The focus is on "justice" for the man who "possesses" the rape victim as his property (e.g., a father or a husband), given that -- under the patriarchal system delineated by much of the OT -- women were viewed as property. Non-consensual sex with a woman was thus hardly seen as an injustice against her, but rather as an injustice against another man. That's why a woman who still lived in her father's home and had consensual sex with other men was to be stoned to death (Deuteronomy 22:13-21): she has done an "outrageous thing" by violating her father's honor. Like you said in an earlier post, context matters -- and, in this case, the context is a viciously patriarchal society which is bolstered by the laws of the OT.

    Not a good model for justice today, and it wasn't a good model for justice ever.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 20 by Faith, posted 10-02-2018 8:44 PM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 25 by Faith, posted 10-03-2018 5:43 AM Genomicus has responded
     Message 29 by Faith, posted 10-04-2018 5:51 AM Genomicus has not yet responded

      
    Genomicus
    Member
    Posts: 852
    Joined: 02-15-2012


    Message 22 of 63 (840660)
    10-02-2018 9:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 20 by Faith
    10-02-2018 8:44 PM


    Re: correction of fact
    And no woman would be alone at a party in ancient Israel anyway.

    That's quite irrelevant.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 20 by Faith, posted 10-02-2018 8:44 PM Faith has not yet responded

      
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 14562
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 2.1


    Message 23 of 63 (840669)
    10-03-2018 12:13 AM
    Reply to: Message 20 by Faith
    10-02-2018 8:44 PM


    Re: correction of fact
    quote:

    Given the culture of the times there is a lot of focus on justice for the rape victim.

    Really ?


    Well, if she didn't scream there would have been no way to prove it wasn't consensual. It's a choice between stoning the two of them to death or stoning him alone.

    That doesn’t sound like a focus on justice for the victim at all.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 20 by Faith, posted 10-02-2018 8:44 PM Faith has not yet responded

        
    Hyroglyphx
    Member
    Posts: 5603
    From: Austin, TX
    Joined: 05-03-2006


    Message 24 of 63 (840673)
    10-03-2018 1:04 AM
    Reply to: Message 18 by Faith
    10-02-2018 6:20 AM


    Re: correction of fact
    if the woman is raped in the CITY she's expected to cry out because she could be heard there, but in the country nobody could hear her. In that case the man is punished for raping her but I didn't find out how the facts were established. I should just not answer these accusations at all I guess.

    To hell with mute rape victims, I guess.

    “‘If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he is to be put to death, and you must kill the animal." - Leviticus 20:15

    "Hey, now wait just a minute!" - Billy Goat


    "Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 18 by Faith, posted 10-02-2018 6:20 AM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 26 by Faith, posted 10-03-2018 5:45 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

        
    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 30216
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 25 of 63 (840680)
    10-03-2018 5:43 AM
    Reply to: Message 21 by Genomicus
    10-02-2018 9:06 PM


    Re: correction of fact
    Considering the patriarchal nature of the society, the raped woman is given quite a bit of protection and justice. Not in a way a modern person would like, but in terms of her situation within that culture. For instance we abhor the idea that her rapist has to marry her, which is the judgment in the case of the rape of a virgin who is not betrothed, but it provides her with support and protection for the rest of her life, whereas sending her back to her parents would leave her as a despised woman open to all kinds of abuse by others.

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 21 by Genomicus, posted 10-02-2018 9:06 PM Genomicus has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 27 by DrJones*, posted 10-03-2018 7:50 PM Faith has responded
     Message 40 by Genomicus, posted 10-05-2018 3:10 AM Faith has responded

        
    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 30216
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 26 of 63 (840681)
    10-03-2018 5:45 AM
    Reply to: Message 24 by Hyroglyphx
    10-03-2018 1:04 AM


    Re: correction of fact
    it's simply a matter of being able to prove it was rape and not adultery. It helps to have proof you know.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 24 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-03-2018 1:04 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

        
    DrJones*
    Member
    Posts: 1766
    From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
    Joined: 08-19-2004
    Member Rating: 3.7


    Message 27 of 63 (840746)
    10-03-2018 7:50 PM
    Reply to: Message 25 by Faith
    10-03-2018 5:43 AM


    Re: correction of fact
    For instance we abhor the idea that her rapist has to marry her, which is the judgment in the case of the rape of a virgin who is not betrothed, but it provides her with support and protection for the rest of her life,

    what makes you think that a man who values a woman so little that he would rape her would then turn around and support and protect her just cause he was forced to marry her? Rapists aren't husband material, they're rapists.

    It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
    soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
    Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
    Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
    All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
    And so there was only one thing I could do
    Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
    Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
    Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
    If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
    *not an actual doctor

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 25 by Faith, posted 10-03-2018 5:43 AM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 28 by Faith, posted 10-04-2018 3:07 AM DrJones* has responded

      
    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 30216
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 28 of 63 (840761)
    10-04-2018 3:07 AM
    Reply to: Message 27 by DrJones*
    10-03-2018 7:50 PM


    Re: correction of fact
    What makes you think that a man who values a woman so little that he would rape her would then turn around and support and protect her just cause he was forced to marry her? Rapists aren't husband material, they're rapists.

    It was the law, probably enforced by the community too, and even if she was mistreated it was better than being a defiled single woman in that patriarchal society since no one else would marry her and often even her parents would reject her. But there is no particular reason to think she was mistreated in the marriage. As a matter of fact there are two famous rapes in the Old Testament described as motivated by passionate love of the woman: the rape of Jacob's daughter Dinah, by a man who wanted to marry her; and the rape of David's daughter Tamar by her half-brother Amnon, whose love turned to hatred afterward so she was not rescued from her defiled condition and went to live with another brother.

    Applying our current views of these things to that ancient culture just doesn't work.

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 27 by DrJones*, posted 10-03-2018 7:50 PM DrJones* has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 30 by DrJones*, posted 10-04-2018 9:18 AM Faith has responded

        
    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 30216
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 29 of 63 (840769)
    10-04-2018 5:51 AM
    Reply to: Message 21 by Genomicus
    10-02-2018 9:06 PM


    Re: correction of fact
    Non-consensual sex with a woman was thus hardly seen as an injustice against her, but rather as an injustice against another man.

    The laws we're talking about do seem to have the woman's welfare in mind within those patriarchal parameters. If she was betrothed the rapist would be stoned to death and it was expected that her betrothed husband would marry her, there is no hint that he wouldn't. And if she was not betrothed the rapist would be required to marry her and take care of her.

    Not a good model for justice today, and it wasn't a good model for justice ever.

    Nobody is arguing that men owning women is a model for justice, it is the cultural context in which justice is being sought and within that context the law aims to provide for her what the society would take away from her if she was raped, that is, the protection of a man and the acceptable status of marriage. Those rules wouldn't apply today but the principle of providing protection and justice for the woman is there and that's the part that holds over to the present.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 21 by Genomicus, posted 10-02-2018 9:06 PM Genomicus has not yet responded

        
    DrJones*
    Member
    Posts: 1766
    From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
    Joined: 08-19-2004
    Member Rating: 3.7


    (1)
    Message 30 of 63 (840772)
    10-04-2018 9:18 AM
    Reply to: Message 28 by Faith
    10-04-2018 3:07 AM


    Re: correction of fact
    It was the law, probably enforced by the community too,

    Don't rape women was also a law, if he broke that one what makes you think he won't break another?

    But there is no particular reason to think she was mistreated in the marriage

    yeah because a rapists are well known for treating women with respect.

    It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
    soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
    Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
    Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
    All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
    And so there was only one thing I could do
    Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
    Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
    Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
    If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
    *not an actual doctor

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 28 by Faith, posted 10-04-2018 3:07 AM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 31 by Faith, posted 10-04-2018 11:11 AM DrJones* has responded

      
    Prev1
    2
    345Next
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.0 Beta
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2018