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Author Topic:   The God Of Sex
Paboss
Member
Posts: 54
Joined: 10-01-2017


Message 46 of 63 (841458)
10-13-2018 5:21 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Faith
10-13-2018 4:07 AM


Re: correction of fact
Faith writes:

God always works within the existing culture

Then he won't have any issue with the sexual freedom we enjoy today.

Faith writes:

and as far as I know He didn't ask you how He should craft His laws.

No, He actually did. I told him: "Just don't be an asshole", but he thought I meant homosexuality was wrong. I guess it's my bad.

Look, all I'm trying to say is if we are his creatures, even after the fall he would have made us capable of at least perceiving a little glance of goodness in those ancient laws. After all, he wants to teach us his good ways and save us all, does he not? But no, what we find in the biblical laws we are considering here is just plain disgusting.

Faith writes:

And I see no obsession.

But Abrahamic religions are obsessed with sexual freedom. I guess is just the need to control every aspect of human culture so that we preserve the status quo.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Faith, posted 10-13-2018 4:07 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Faith, posted 10-13-2018 1:23 PM Paboss has responded

    
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10237
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 47 of 63 (841461)
10-13-2018 6:49 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Faith
10-13-2018 4:55 AM


Re: correction of fact
So is rape a sinful act or not?

The bible doesnít seem clear on this so Iím asking you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 10-13-2018 4:55 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Faith, posted 10-13-2018 1:04 PM Straggler has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30022
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 48 of 63 (841469)
10-13-2018 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Straggler
10-13-2018 6:49 AM


Re: correction of fact
The Bible punishes the rapist by death, or requires him to marry her and take care of her for the rest of her life, which has been discussed a great deal here. In the second case if the law put him to death it would leave the woman without any prospect of ever marrying, and bearing the stigma of the rape for the rest of her life. In the first case she was betrothed and her intended would marry her so the rapist would be put to death.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Straggler, posted 10-13-2018 6:49 AM Straggler has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by ringo, posted 10-13-2018 1:14 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15567
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 49 of 63 (841470)
10-13-2018 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Faith
10-13-2018 1:04 PM


Re: correction of fact
Faith writes:

... if the law put him to death it would leave the woman without any prospect of ever marrying, and bearing the stigma of the rape for the rest of her life.


That seems like more of a reflection on the society of the time than anything else. We don't stigmatize robbery victims. Why would we stigmatize rape victims or be reluctant to marry them?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Faith, posted 10-13-2018 1:04 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 10-13-2018 1:24 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30022
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 50 of 63 (841471)
10-13-2018 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Paboss
10-13-2018 5:21 AM


sexual freedom?
God always works within the existing culture.

Then he won't have any issue with the sexual freedom we enjoy today.

What that means is that He doesn't impose strictures that are beyond what the people can bear and in a patriarchal society which devalues women He will challenge it as far as to put the rapist to death or require him to marry the woman. He can't very well require the whole culture to change and treat her as a modern culture would, but He can be sure she is cared for and protected.

He isn't writing laws for today, it's our job to use His Law as a standard for our laws. Which should certainly be understood to indicate that He will punish us for our so-called "sexual freedom," for the broken homes and the hurt spouses due to the adulteries, for the children without one or the other parent due to the irresponsible fornications, and also for the consequent economic deprivation. And of course for the enormous abortion rate which is a direct consequence of it all.

At least.

and as far as I know He didn't ask you how He should craft His laws.

No, He actually did. I told him: "Just don't be an asshole", but he thought I meant homosexuality was wrong. I guess it's my bad. Look, all I'm trying to say is if we are his creatures, even after the fall he would have made us capable of at least perceiving a little glance of goodness in those ancient laws. After all, he wants to teach us his good ways and save us all, does he not? But no, what we find in the biblical laws we are considering here is just plain disgusting.

Not to some of us who see His laws and His punishments as expressions of His goodness to us in protecting us against our own fallen selfish stupidities. King David wrote the psalm that says "Oh how I love thy Law" (and King David was a big sinner too) and although you obviously have no appreciation of it, some of us do, even many of us who used to think the idiotic way you do. His Law is deep wisdom and, to anyone who can understand it, deep love and mercy too.

And I see no obsession. But Abrahamic religions are obsessed with sexual freedom. I guess is just the need to control every aspect of human culture so that we preserve the status quo.

I myself was surprised to come to appreciate how much of human sin is related to sexuality, but as I say above I also came to appreciate how laws controlling it are a necessary and merciful curb on a society-destroying power when exercised without responsibility or restraint.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Paboss, posted 10-13-2018 5:21 AM Paboss has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Paboss, posted 10-13-2018 11:17 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30022
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 51 of 63 (841472)
10-13-2018 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by ringo
10-13-2018 1:14 PM


Re: correction of fact
Yes it is about the society of the time, which is of course the immediate context for which the Law was written. We have to adapt it to our own different situation.

But I think you are being rather short-sighted if you don't recognize just how recently our own societies stigmatized the victim of rape or other kinds of abuse and misfortune, and certainly had no merciful agencies in place to help them.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by ringo, posted 10-13-2018 1:14 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by ringo, posted 10-13-2018 1:38 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15567
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 52 of 63 (841473)
10-13-2018 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Faith
10-13-2018 1:24 PM


Re: correction of fact
Faith writes:

But I think you are being rather short-sighted if you don't recognize just how recently our own societies stigmatized the victim of rape or other kinds of abuse and misfortune, and certainly had no mercifal agencies in place to help them.


I do recognize that. It's still going on, although to a lesser extent. Any improvement on the part of society has been despite references to "God's law" rather than because of them.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 10-13-2018 1:24 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 10-13-2018 1:41 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30022
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 53 of 63 (841474)
10-13-2018 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by ringo
10-13-2018 1:38 PM


Re: correction of fact
The principles of both justice and mercy are well expressed in God's Law. It is fallen nature that causes all the injustice and mercilessness in any society. Of course some laws are going to seem that way to you but they aren't.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by ringo, posted 10-13-2018 1:38 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by ringo, posted 10-13-2018 1:55 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15567
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 54 of 63 (841475)
10-13-2018 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Faith
10-13-2018 1:41 PM


Re: correction of fact
Faith writes:

It is fallen nature that causes all the injustice and mercilessness in any society.


What I'm saying is that the improvement in society's attitude seems to come from the secular side. Those who dwell on "God's law" seem to exhibit more fallenness, not less. Indeed, some of them seem to revel in being fallen.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 10-13-2018 1:41 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Faith, posted 10-13-2018 2:35 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30022
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 55 of 63 (841476)
10-13-2018 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by ringo
10-13-2018 1:55 PM


Re: correction of fact
There is really no such thing as a "secular" body of thought though, that is not ultimately derived from God's Law, or at least some version of biblical principles no matter how understood or misunderstood, OR a combination of those with the basic fallen enmity to everything of God -- just because we were once steeped in Christianity. It's all borrowed and in some cases distorted though in some cases helpful against former excesses of fallenness. If Christ had not come and influenced the development of the west you can be sure we would still be a bunch of warring patriarchal tribes.

Marxism is a distortion of Biblical principles. It leads to extreme injustice and murder because it requires enforcement by power rather than persuasion or reason. Milder forms of socialism may embody mercy up to a point but they too are rationalized on Biblical principles, also mot fully understood but interestingly often used against the true principles of God's law. Analyzing the complexities of how God's principles and human fallenness have interacted is beyond my abilities but it certainly is a complex matter and getting it all right is no doubt simply beyond us.

In any case law is only needed in a fallen world and at the moment fallenness seems to be dominating and law can barely keep up in my judgment. At some point such a system may simply collapse. And then we'll go back to societies dominated by tough guys who may or may not care about anything but their own power.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by ringo, posted 10-13-2018 1:55 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by ringo, posted 10-13-2018 2:58 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15567
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 56 of 63 (841481)
10-13-2018 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Faith
10-13-2018 2:35 PM


Re: correction of fact
Faith writes:

There is really no such thing as a "secular" body of thought though, that is not ultimately derived from God's Law....


My point being that the secular derivations are an improvement on "God's law" - and one of the major obstacles to further improvements is those who cling to "God's law" as if it was already perfect.

Faith writes:

In any case law is only needed in a fallen world....


Law is only needed in a real world. Reality itself is not an indicator of any "fall". The real indications are of improvement in societal attitudes, despite your predictions and/or wishes.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Faith, posted 10-13-2018 2:35 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Paboss
Member
Posts: 54
Joined: 10-01-2017


(1)
Message 57 of 63 (841501)
10-13-2018 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Faith
10-13-2018 1:23 PM


Re: sexual freedom?
Faith writes:

He isn't writing laws for today, it's our job to use His Law as a standard for our laws. Which should certainly be understood to indicate that He will punish us for our so-called "sexual freedom," for the broken homes and the hurt spouses due to the adulteries, for the children without one or the other parent due to the irresponsible fornications, and also for the consequent economic deprivation. And of course for the enormous abortion rate which is a direct consequence of it all.

However, if you look at History, sexual repression hasn't really helped to prevent those problems, has it? Just look at catholic and JW's record of pederasty. Sexual repression only fucks up people's minds and they end up doing things they would not if they had developed their sexuality properly. Now, I know you don't follow any of those denominations, so please don't come up with bullshit arguments that they are not the true church of Christ. I'm just trying to show you a human example of what sexual control leads to. I bet some church authorities of your denomination have their little dirty secrets of their own. What really helps is sexual education; something that church authorities are not that eager to support. By they way, did you know that abortion rates are lower amongst secular persons?

Faith writes:

Not to some of us who see His laws and His punishments as expressions of His goodness to us in protecting us against our own fallen selfish stupidities. King David wrote the psalm that says "Oh how I love thy Law" (and King David was a big sinner too) and although you obviously have no appreciation of it, some of us do, even many of us who used to think the idiotic way you do. His Law is deep wisdom and, to anyone who can understand it, deep love and mercy too.

Wanna talk about idiocy? How about making excuses for a mediocre god who doesn't have the guts to point out something that is wrong just because the thing is too ingrained in the culture of the people? What good is he then? How's that for idiocy?

Now that you mention King David, remember the incident with Betsheba? when he had sex with her and then sent her husband to a sure death in the battlefield? Do you remember what did God do about it? He killed the baby that was the result of that relationship. An innocent baby. And your god who is supposedly against abortion took it against an innocent baby. That's the kind of stupid things your god does that makes one wonder how could an omniscient and benevolent being come up with that.

Edited by Paboss, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Faith, posted 10-13-2018 1:23 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Faith, posted 10-14-2018 3:11 AM Paboss has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30022
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 58 of 63 (841504)
10-14-2018 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Paboss
10-13-2018 11:17 PM


Re: sexual freedom?
Gosh, "sexual repression." That one was really really big in the sixties. Wilhelm Reich and company. And of course in the twenties with Freud.

Whatever shreds of truth there might be to the idea for some people, there is nothing in God's Law that promotes it. All such ills society promotes are due to the fallen nature. We just can't get it right.

I don't think we need any explanation for sexual sin. We're fallen creatures who gravitate to sin like moths to flame and we also have the dear devil to help us out if we lag a bit. But the difference between now and when supposedly "sexual repression" reigned is that we now give legal license to "sexual freedom" so that it isn't just the occasional problem but the whole society is taking on water as it were and close to sinking from it.

Oh rave on, you'll fall into your own pit eventually.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Paboss, posted 10-13-2018 11:17 PM Paboss has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Paboss, posted 10-16-2018 4:28 AM Faith has responded

    
Paboss
Member
Posts: 54
Joined: 10-01-2017


(1)
Message 59 of 63 (841595)
10-16-2018 4:28 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Faith
10-14-2018 3:11 AM


Re: sexual freedom?
Faith writes:

I don't think we need any explanation for sexual sin. We're fallen creatures who gravitate to sin like moths to flame and we also have the dear devil to help us out if we lag a bit.

Do you know why moths fly towards the flame? They evolved the ability to use the rays emitted by celestial bodies to guide themselves. Since these bodies are very far, the rays they emit are parallel to each other. But the fire is close, so its rays diverge from the point of origin and this confuses the moth, making it spiral towards its death in the flame. It is a side effect from an otherwise good orientation system.

Something similar happened to us. Humans, like other animals, evolved the instinct of attributing agency to natural phenomena; from a thunderstorm to a gentle breeze rustling through the grass. This was helpful in the wild as it prevented our ancestors from falling prey to lurking predators. But it had also its side effect. People began explaining everything with some external agency and this gave birth to religions. Some smart people figured they could control populations by pretending to be the recipients of the messages from the gods. Others went forward and twisted the human nature, converting everything we are as humans into wickedness. They realised how powerful is the sense of fear and guilt to control people's minds and discourage any challenge. That's how Christianity grew so powerful and that is why it is so important to control the guilt and fear of people through sexual repression, among other strategies of mind control, like fear of Hell.

Faith writes:

Oh rave on, you'll fall into your own pit eventually.

I may rave on, like you say, but I also ask questions. And my question for you is what a homosexual Christian is supposed to do. Pray for understanding, or for a "cure"? They are torn between, on the one hand, their sexual nature, which they didn't choose; and in the other hand their belief which they didn't choose either. They live with the sense of guilt, of unworthiness, fear of being shunned by society and fear of retribution by God, because no matter how hard they try, they simply cannot get over their sexual inclinations. Is a miserable way to live which has led many to end their own lives; for which, to add insult to injury, they are to be punished in the afterlife.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Faith, posted 10-14-2018 3:11 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 10-16-2018 8:45 AM Paboss has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30022
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 60 of 63 (841597)
10-16-2018 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Paboss
10-16-2018 4:28 AM


Re: sexual freedom?
I may rave on, like you say, but I also ask questions. And my question for you is what a homosexual Christian is supposed to do.

The same thing an adulterous Christian is supposed to do, or an alcoholic Christian or any Christian with a strong bent toward a particular sin: repent of it, yes pray for strength to give it up, give it up. There is nothing else you can do with sin but mortify it. It's hard, and especially hard if it's been indulged over some time, even if only in fantasy. Very very hard. I wouldn't want to minimize the struggle because I know it would hurt a lot. But a truly serious Christian HAS to give up sin, no matter how hard it is, and you have the help of God Himself to do it. "You haven't yet resisted sin to the shedding of blood" it says in Hebrews 12:4. We are to fight sin to that extent.

I'll agree that homosexual feelings are probably about the hardest sin to mortify, but on the other hand some people are plagued by inappropriate heterosexual fantasies they can't give up, or other kinds of cravings, some are addicted to pornography, so even while I'm saying this I'm not sure of it completely. If a person is really a Christian though, it should be understood that homosexual sin is like all the rest, Jesus doesn't heap on the social stigmas, society does that, and He offers refuge from them. If society weren't whipping us up via the "sexual freedom" movement, to indulge these things in the first place, there might not be as much of a struggle.

If you believe all that hooha you wrote about how religions "evolved" there's no point in asking about Christianity anyway.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Paboss, posted 10-16-2018 4:28 AM Paboss has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by 1.61803, posted 10-17-2018 4:03 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 62 by ringo, posted 10-17-2018 4:55 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 63 by Paboss, posted 10-18-2018 5:44 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
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