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Author Topic:   Bible Inerrancy stands against all objections
Faith
Member
Posts: 30041
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 91 of 166 (842211)
10-27-2018 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by GDR
10-27-2018 4:20 PM


Re: Word of God is both Christ and Scripture
Just to be clear: do you think that doctrine is false?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by GDR, posted 10-27-2018 4:20 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by GDR, posted 10-27-2018 8:31 PM Faith has responded

    
Paboss
Member
Posts: 54
Joined: 10-01-2017


Message 92 of 166 (842212)
10-27-2018 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Faith
10-27-2018 3:09 PM


Re: Discussing Bible contradictions to examine Bible Inerrancy
Faith writes:

I don't say the KJV is inerrant, it's a translation, translations aren't inerrant. I thought you wanted to know what translation I use.

This is what I asked you:

I want to ask you if thereís any particular version of the Bible that you hold as inerrant or any version will do for you to support your case.

And this was your response:

KJV

So it did seem like you were saying that the KJV was inerrant. But now I realize you are saying that translations are not inerrant. So which Bible are you arguing for when you say the Bible inerrancy stands against all objections? Are you saying that only the original manuscripts are inerrant?

If that is the case, that is something we cannot test. We have no original manuscripts. All we have are copies and translations, which as you and the Chicago Statement acknowledge, are not inerrant.

But no Bible is made up of original manuscripts. When the first canon was put together, as late as the 4th century, all they had were copies from the copies from the copies, etc. And when it comes to OT they had translations from the original language, which made it worse. So which document are you exactly talking about when you say the Bible is inerrant?

I guess, since we both agree that the KJV, and any translation for that matter are not free from error, you wonít be responding to my challenge about the two versions of Judasís death.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 10-27-2018 3:09 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 10-27-2018 8:18 PM Paboss has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30041
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 93 of 166 (842214)
10-27-2018 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Paboss
10-27-2018 8:14 PM


Re: Discussing Bible contradictions to examine Bible Inerrancy
Yes only the original autographs are inerrant. No you can't test them. You aren't being asked to test them. The Chicago Statement is a Statement, not a proposition or an argument.

Different accounts of unimportant events don't affect inerrancy. As the Statement says (you should read it) precision is not expected.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Paboss, posted 10-27-2018 8:14 PM Paboss has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by PaulK, posted 10-28-2018 3:52 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4540
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 94 of 166 (842215)
10-27-2018 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Faith
10-27-2018 8:12 PM


Re: Word of God is both Christ and Scripture
Faith writes:

Just to be clear: do you think that doctrine is false?

Yes, but not in the way that I believe that you understand it. You have said in the past that personal salvation is the major point of Christ dying on the cross. I see the cross and the resurrection as the launch, and the affirmation of a Kingdom movement on Earth that is charged with reflecting God's love into His creation.

If Christianity is primarily about who is in and who isn't in the next life, it misses the point of what Jesus was all about. That is not to say it doesn't matter but if we follow Jesus' model of love, forgiveness, mercy, justice etc, personal salvation will take care of itself and I'll leave it up to God as to how that looks instead of worrying about it myself. As the Bible says, God will judge our hearts. It doesn't say that God will judge our doctrine.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Faith, posted 10-27-2018 8:12 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Faith, posted 10-28-2018 2:08 AM GDR has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30041
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 95 of 166 (842221)
10-28-2018 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by GDR
10-27-2018 8:31 PM


Re: Word of God is both Christ and Scripture
Just to be clear: do you think that doctrine is false?

Yes, but not in the way that I believe that you understand it. You have said in the past that personal salvation is the major point of Christ dying on the cross.

It's THE point, ieverything begins there. We have to be changed and salvation changes us, cleanses us of sin and fits us for God's Kingdom.

The whole Israelite system of sacrificing animals for the remission of sins is fulfilled in His death on the cross. The animals were killed to pay for the sins of the Israelites and He died for the sins of all who believe on Him.

some passages from the Book of Hebrews writes:

Heb 2:14 -17 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people....

Heb 7:22-28 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. 23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: 24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore....

Heb 9:11-15 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance....

Heb 10:8-24 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God. 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. 19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) 24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works...

GDR writes:

I see the cross and the resurrection as the launch, and the affirmation of a Kingdom movement on Earth that is charged with reflecting God's love into His creation.

That's sort of what my view is too except you slight the cross itself and salvation itself, the great sacrifice Christ made so that God's Kingdom COULD come, dying a death He didn't deserve to defeat the devil who had held humanity captive, to overthrow the curse of the Fall, to open the way for an entirely new creation.... You treat Christ as nothing, you deprive Him of the glory and worship He deserves for His great sacrifice.

If Christianity is primarily about who is in and who isn't in the next life,

That is such a trivializing idea. It's not "about" that at all. It's about the formation of the Kingdom you think you are talking about, by saved people since that is the only kind of people who can form the Kingdom of God, a people made sinless through Christ's sacrifice for us, a people set free from the curse of the Fall, a people ultimately possessing the very nature of Christ. Sinners can't form the Kingdom of God.

it misses the point of what Jesus was all about. That is not to say it doesn't matter but if we follow Jesus' model of love, forgiveness, mercy, justice etc, personal salvation will take care of itself and I'll leave it up to God as to how that looks instead of worrying about it myself.

You are denying the entire history of Christianity but clearly you are convinced of your view and that appears to be that.

As the Bible says, God will judge our hearts. It doesn't say that God will judge our doctrine.

But if our doctrine is false so will our hearts be. If our doctrine tells us we have to kill people who don't believe as we do our hearts will believe that too and act accordingly. But if our doctrine tells us that God loves us and sent His Son to die so that we don't have to suffer for our sins then we will have a heart full of love and gratitude to God and an eagerness to do what He asks us to do. "Whoever is forgiven much loves much."

========================

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

2Cr 10:4-5 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God...

Political Correctness is Cultural Marxism

If fascism comes to America it will be in the form of liberalism -Ronald Reagan


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by GDR, posted 10-27-2018 8:31 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by GDR, posted 10-28-2018 11:33 AM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14490
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 96 of 166 (842225)
10-28-2018 3:52 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Faith
10-27-2018 8:18 PM


Re: Discussing Bible contradictions to examine Bible Inerrancy
quote:

Different accounts of unimportant events don't affect inerrancy. As the Statement says (you should read it) precision is not expected.

Presumably you mean


WE AFFIRM the propriety of using inerrancy as a theological term with reference to the complete truthfulness of Scripture.
WE DENY that it is proper to evaluate Scripture according to standards of truth and error that are alien to its usage or purpose. We further deny that inerrancy is negated by Biblical phenomena such as a lack of modern technical precision, irregularities of grammar or spelling, observational descriptions of nature, the reporting of falsehoods, the use of hyperbole and round numbers, the topical arrangement of material, variant selections of material in parallel accounts, or the use of free citations.

However unless you are going to say that Peterís account of Judasí death was false (which itself raises serious questions) it does not seem to be covered.

Let us also note that there are significant discrepancies in the Nativity stories, the genealogies of Jesus and - quite damningly - the accounts of the post-resurrection appearances. To name just three examples from the Gospels and Acts.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 10-27-2018 8:18 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 97 of 166 (842226)
10-28-2018 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Faith
10-27-2018 3:14 PM


Re: Word of God is both Christ and Scripture
Faith writes:

We are to PUT OUR TRUST IN JESUS CHRIST'S DEATH ON THE CROSS TO PAY FOR OUR SINS.

And that is the greatest and safest con of all time, a Constitutionally protected con job without even any fear of claims of false advertising or of product liability.

It's the ultimate "Get Outta Hell Free" con. It is a perversion of everything Jesus is claimed to have taught and diminishes Jesus life and ministry to little more than left over discarded BBQ.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios † † My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Faith, posted 10-27-2018 3:14 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4540
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 98 of 166 (842231)
10-28-2018 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Faith
10-28-2018 2:08 AM


Re: Word of God is both Christ and Scripture
Faith writes:

That is such a trivializing idea. It's not "about" that at all. It's about the formation of the Kingdom you think you are talking about, by saved people since that is the only kind of people who can form the Kingdom of God, a people made sinless through Christ's sacrifice for us, a people set free from the curse of the Fall, a people ultimately possessing the very nature of Christ. Sinners can't form the Kingdom of God.

You confuse the Kingdom message as being about personal salvation. It is about a Kingdom of people who live by Christ's commands of love. Salvation is for the whole creation. Read in Ephesians 1, Rev. 21 and others. It is about the renewal of all things. Jesus' death and resurrection are about the establishment of that renewed creation.

Trivializing it is when you crunch it down to being about personal salvation. It is so much more than that. In this life God has called humans to work for the new creation by reflecting His love into it. And again, I'll leave it up to God as to how we fit into that renewed creation.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Faith, posted 10-28-2018 2:08 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Faith, posted 10-28-2018 3:50 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 389
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 99 of 166 (842232)
10-28-2018 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Faith
10-27-2018 3:06 PM


Google is your friend. Well, not yours, exactly.

Try "ancient hebrew cosmology". See if any word of the OT contradicts that view of the physical universe.

ABE: An excellent image on Flickr, accompanied by an equally good bit of commentary.

https://www.flickr.com/...elpaukner/4077736695/in/dateposted

Edited by Capt Stormfield, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 10-27-2018 3:06 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 10-28-2018 4:13 PM Capt Stormfield has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15597
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 100 of 166 (842246)
10-28-2018 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Faith
10-27-2018 8:11 PM


Re: Martin Luther told us humans not to compromise scripture with (heliocentric) science.
Faith writes:

... scripture says death didn't enter until the Fall.


No it doesn't.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 10-27-2018 8:11 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Faith, posted 10-28-2018 3:49 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30041
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 101 of 166 (842255)
10-28-2018 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by ringo
10-28-2018 2:35 PM


Re: Martin Luther told us humans not to compromise scripture with (heliocentric) science.
yes it does.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by ringo, posted 10-28-2018 2:35 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by ringo, posted 10-28-2018 3:53 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30041
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 102 of 166 (842257)
10-28-2018 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by GDR
10-28-2018 11:33 AM


Re: Word of God is both Christ and Scripture
I don't know what you think you are arguing with since I said pretty much the same thing.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by GDR, posted 10-28-2018 11:33 AM GDR has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15597
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 103 of 166 (842258)
10-28-2018 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Faith
10-28-2018 3:49 PM


Re: Martin Luther told us humans not to compromise scripture with (heliocentric) science.
Faith writes:

yes it does.


No it doesn't. The idea of no death is barely plausible but not supported by the text. The idea of a "fall" is directly contradictory to the text.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Faith, posted 10-28-2018 3:49 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Faith, posted 10-28-2018 4:09 PM ringo has responded
 Message 137 by Aussie, posted 11-01-2018 1:58 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30041
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 104 of 166 (842259)
10-28-2018 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by ringo
10-28-2018 3:53 PM


Re: Martin Luther told us humans not to compromise scripture with (heliocentric) science.
Death entered with sin, scripture says that. And the Fall is implicit throughout the Bible. The fact that the Creation will be remade when Jesus returns is evidence.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by ringo, posted 10-28-2018 3:53 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by ringo, posted 10-28-2018 4:43 PM Faith has responded
 Message 117 by jar, posted 10-29-2018 8:02 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30041
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 105 of 166 (842260)
10-28-2018 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Capt Stormfield
10-28-2018 11:54 AM


Bible is not geocentric
from Got Questions.org

Question: "Does the Bible teach geocentrism? Does the Bible teach that the Earth is the center of the universe?"

Answer: This is a very important question because the answer helps to shape our belief system and worldview, both of which have eternal consequences. The short answer to this question is ďno.Ē Nowhere in the Bible are we told that the Earth is at the center of the universe. For many centuries, however, people believed that Claudius Ptolemaeus and others were correct when they advocated an Earth-centered universe. They wanted to believe this theory because some thought, incorrectly, that this is what the Bible teaches.

Taken in order, Genesis 1:14-18, Psalm 104:5, Job 26:7 and Isaiah 40:22 were often cited to support the geocentric theory of Ptolemaeus. Yet none of these Scriptures, taken in any order whatsoever, state that God designed the universe with Earth at its center. In fact, Earth isnít even the center of its own small solar system; the sun is. We can understand why Copernicus and, later, Galileo, who posited the sun-centered (heliocentric) theory, caused such a controversy in the church. It was thought that heliocentricism contradicted the biblical teaching of geocentrism. But, again, the problem was that Godís Word doesnít say that the Earth is at the center of anything. Sadly, as time went on and people came to understand that the Earth did in fact revolve around the Sun, many simply lost faith in Godís Word, because they had falsely been taught geocentrism.

We must remember that Scripture, not science, is the ultimate test of all truth. How ironic that science has never disproved one word of the Bible, yet many people cite ďscienceĒ as their reason to walk away from God. The ever-changing theories of fallible man come and go. Not so with the Word of God, however, as it endures forever (Matthew 5:18). Any time there is a seemingly irreconcilable difference between the two, the Bible is where we need to place our faith.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Capt Stormfield, posted 10-28-2018 11:54 AM Capt Stormfield has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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