Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 83 (8873 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 11-20-2018 6:22 AM
215 online now:
PaulK, RAZD, Son of Man, Tangle (4 members, 211 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Arkangel Daniel
Post Volume:
Total: 842,418 Year: 17,241/29,783 Month: 1,229/1,956 Week: 226/506 Day: 31/131 Hour: 2/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
...
67
8
9101112Next
Author Topic:   Bible Inerrancy stands against all objections
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14513
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 106 of 166 (842266)
10-28-2018 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Faith
10-28-2018 4:13 PM


Re: Bible is geocentric (but I think we covered it up)
Let me note that that text is simply dishonest and evasive.

It does not address the evidence of geocentrism, it just says that there isnít an explicit statement of geocentrism.

Which isnít surprising - the worldview of Genesis 1 doesnít include the universe as we now know it. There isnít really any point in an explicit statement. The fact that the Sun, Moon and stars are all described as being attached to a dome covering the Earth makes it quite clear.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 10-28-2018 4:13 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15606
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 107 of 166 (842267)
10-28-2018 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Faith
10-28-2018 4:09 PM


Re: Martin Luther told us humans not to compromise scripture with (heliocentric) science.
Faith writes:

Death entered with sin, scripture says that.


Funny how you insist on "spiritual" death when Adam and Eve didn't die but you insist on physical death here.

Faith writes:

And the Fall is implicit throughout the Bible.


And it's explicitly false. Becoming more like God is not a fall.

qs writes:

The fact that the Creation will be remade when Jesus returns is evidence.


You're confusing your tenses. Speculation about the future is neither fact nor evidence.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Faith, posted 10-28-2018 4:09 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Faith, posted 10-29-2018 3:59 AM ringo has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1279
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 108 of 166 (842268)
10-28-2018 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Faith
10-27-2018 8:11 PM


Faith: "Scripture says death didn't enter until the Fall."
"Please quote.

Evolution requires death, scripture says death didn't enter until the Fall."

I'll start with the evolution part.

I will just say that the correctness of the "death requirement for evolution" depends on which exact (constantly changing) theory of evolution actually is true.

But as to the scripture part (in your short post), then I need to get right back to the issue of the scientific views of the day.

They have been changing.

They have been incorrect.

(Both the ONCE popular scriptural readings and scientific views)

quote:

The Sixth Extinction: An Unnatural History
By Elizabeth Kolbert

pp.24-25

Extinction may be the first scientific idea that kids today have to grapple with. One-year-olds are given toy dinosaurs to play with, and two-year-olds understand, in a vague sort of way at least, that these small plastic creatures represent very large animals. If they're quick learners - or, alternatively, slow toilet trainers - children still in diapers can explain that there were once lots of kinds of dinosaurs and that they all died off long ago. ... All of which is to say that extinction strikes us as an obvious idea. It isn't.

Aristotle wrote a ten-book History of Animals without ever considering the possibility that animals actually had a history. Pliny's Natural History included descriptions of animals that are real and descriptions of animals that are fabulous, but no descriptions of animals that are extinct. The idea did not crop up during the Middle Ages or during the Renaissance, when the word "fossil" was used to refer to anything dug up from the ground (hence the term "fossil fuels"). In the Enlightenment, the prevailing view was that every species was a link in a great unbreakable "chain of being." As Alexander Pope put it in his Essay on Man

All are but parts of one stupendous whole,
Whose body nature is, and God one soul.

When Carl Linnaeus introduced his system of binomial nomenclature, he made no distinction between the living and the dead because, in his view, none was required. The tenth edition of his Systema Naturae, published in 1758, lists sixty-three species of scarab beetle, thirty-four species of cone snail, and sixteen species of flat fishes. And yet in the Systema Naturae, there is really only one kinf of animal - those that exist.

The view persisted despite a sizable body of evidence to the contrary. Cabinets of curiosities in London, Paris, and Berlin were filled with traces of strange creatures that no one had ever seen - the remains of animals that would now be identified as trilobites, belemnites, and ammonites. Some of the last were so large their fossilized shells approached the size of wagon wheels. In the eighteenth century, mammoth bones increasingly made their way to Europe from Siberia. These, too, were showhorned into the system. The bones looked a lot like those of elephants. Since there clearly were no elephants in contemporary Russia, it was decided that they must have belonged to beasts that had been washed north in the great flood of Genesis.

Extinction finally emerged as a concept, probably not coincidentally, in revolutionary France. It did so largely thanks to one animal, the creature now called the American mastadon, or Mammut americanum, and one man, the naturalist Jean-Leopold-Nicolas-Frederic Cuvier, known after a dead brother simply as Georges.Cuvier is an equivocal figure in the history of science. He was far ahead of his contemporaries yet also held many of them back; he could be charming and he could be viscious; he was a visionary and, at the same time, a reactionary. By the middle of the nineteenth century, many of his ideas had been discredited. But the most recent discoveries have tended to support those very theories of his that were most thoroughly vilified, with the result that Cuvier's essentially tragic vision of earth history has come to seem prophetic.


I hope you can see that the issue of creationists Christians being wrong ( and ignorant) is unquestionable.

I hope you can see that the scientific community has been wrong (and ignorant, despite the best efforts).

The history of being WRONG is long.

Today's Creationists admit that Luther and Calvin were wrong when they powerfully asserted that the Earth does not move BECAUSE OF THE HOLY TEXT being read incorrectly.

Do you admit that EXTINCTION was an area of ignorance among those who read and interpreted the Bible during the previous 2000 years (laying aside the last 200 years plus when there was enlightenment)?

The issue of death itself might be misunderstood (there sure the heck is alot of ignorance of food issues and what exactly the Bible said about what was and was not allowed), and frankly it is not actually spelled out. "The Fall" happened, then children were born. The children then went on to begin to kill each other. (It is still debated if Abel even offered up a creature, or if there was some other sacrifice).

You yourself said that God programmed humans and creatures with the ability to eat meat. I read that earlier. Genetic code alone demands that some will resort to parasitic or carniverous behavior.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 10-27-2018 8:11 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Faith, posted 10-29-2018 5:11 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14513
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 109 of 166 (842285)
10-29-2018 2:00 AM


So when does Biblical Inerrancy stand up to the objections?
So far we havenít seen much of a defence. The objections are winning hands down.

Itís as if the thread title was just empty bluster.


Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 10-29-2018 5:00 AM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30079
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 110 of 166 (842286)
10-29-2018 3:59 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by ringo
10-28-2018 4:43 PM


The Fall
Funny how you insist on "spiritual" death when Adam and Eve didn't die but you insist on physical death here.

They did die, as a result of the Fall, they physically died, they were no longer immortal, but death began right away with the death of powers and capacities they had previously had.

Here's the Westminster Confession of Faith on the Fall:

Chapter VI

Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and the Punishment thereof

I. Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptations of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit.[1] This their sin, God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to his own glory.[2]

II. By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion, with God,[3] and so became dead in sin,[4] and wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body.[5]

III. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed;[6] and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.[7]

IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good,[8] and wholly inclined to all evil,[9] do proceed all actual transgressions.[10]

V. This corruption of nature, during this life, does remain in those that are regenerated;[11] and although it be, through Christ, pardoned, and mortified; yet both itself, and all the motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.[12]

VI. Every sin, both original and actual, being a transgression of the righteous law of God, and contrary thereunto,[13] does in its own nature, bring guilt upon the sinner,[14] whereby he is bound over to the wrath of God,[15] and curse of the law,[16] and so made subject to death,[17] with all miseries spiritual,[18] temporal,[19] and eternal.[20]

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by ringo, posted 10-28-2018 4:43 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by ringo, posted 10-29-2018 11:47 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 121 by jar, posted 10-29-2018 2:25 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30079
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 111 of 166 (842288)
10-29-2018 5:00 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by PaulK
10-29-2018 2:00 AM


Re: So when does Biblical Inerrancy stand up to the objections?
You misunderstand the title. It's not a matter of proving it, Bible inerrancy stands against all objections because it denies them any validity.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by PaulK, posted 10-29-2018 2:00 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by PaulK, posted 10-29-2018 5:09 AM Faith has responded
 Message 116 by Tangle, posted 10-29-2018 5:31 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 118 by JonF, posted 10-29-2018 9:27 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 119 by Taq, posted 10-29-2018 11:43 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14513
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 112 of 166 (842289)
10-29-2018 5:09 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Faith
10-29-2018 5:00 AM


Re: So when does Biblical Inerrancy stand up to the objections?
Oh. So Bible Inerrancy is a false and anti-Biblical doctrine held in spite of the truth. Thatís fine. Itís incredibly irrational and unChristian but if thatís the way you want to go, thatís your business.

I assumed that the title meant that the objections could be sensibly answered. I now understand my error - but you have to admit it was a bit misleading. Perhaps ďBible Inerrancy is an Invincible LieĒ would have more accurately stated your intent.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 10-29-2018 5:00 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Faith, posted 10-29-2018 5:22 AM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30079
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 113 of 166 (842290)
10-29-2018 5:11 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by LamarkNewAge
10-28-2018 4:48 PM


Re: Faith: "Scripture says death didn't enter until the Fall."
Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by LamarkNewAge, posted 10-28-2018 4:48 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by LamarkNewAge, posted 10-29-2018 8:49 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 126 by LamarkNewAge, posted 10-29-2018 9:33 PM Faith has responded
 Message 151 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-03-2018 12:54 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30079
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 114 of 166 (842291)
10-29-2018 5:22 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by PaulK
10-29-2018 5:09 AM


Re: So when does Biblical Inerrancy stand up to the objections?
They just figure you don't understand anything about truth, and you don't.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by PaulK, posted 10-29-2018 5:09 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by PaulK, posted 10-29-2018 5:29 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 124 by PaulK, posted 10-29-2018 5:51 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14513
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 115 of 166 (842292)
10-29-2018 5:29 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Faith
10-29-2018 5:22 AM


Re: So when does Biblical Inerrancy stand up to the objections?
quote:

They just figure you don't understand anything about truth, and you don't.

Please tell me your idea of ďtruthĒ since it is both contrary to logic and correspondence theory. (Odd that such widely accepted ideas should be rejected as lacking understanding, but still)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Faith, posted 10-29-2018 5:22 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6262
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 116 of 166 (842293)
10-29-2018 5:31 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Faith
10-29-2018 5:00 AM


Re: So when does Biblical Inerrancy stand up to the objections?
Faith writes:

It's not a matter of proving it, Bible inerrancy stands against all objections because it denies them any validity.

The bible is right therefore there can be no valid objections to it.

How very Orwellian. Therein lies totalitarianism.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 10-29-2018 5:00 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 117 of 166 (842295)
10-29-2018 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Faith
10-28-2018 4:09 PM


Re: Martin Luther told us humans not to compromise scripture with (heliocentric) science.
Faith writes:

Death entered with sin, scripture says that.

Paul is alleged to say that but no where in the rest of the Bible is there any evidence that is true and there is lots of evidence in the Bible that that is simply not true.

Paul's unsupported assertion is simply more evidence that the Bible is not Inerrant and that Biblical Innerancy is a dogma based on willful Ignorance and Dishonesty.

There is NO Fall in the Bible and that too is simply evidence of the dishonesty of "Biblical" Christianity.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios † † My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Faith, posted 10-28-2018 4:09 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 4268
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 118 of 166 (842299)
10-29-2018 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Faith
10-29-2018 5:00 AM


Re: So when does Biblical Inerrancy stand up to the objections?
You misunderstand the title. It's not a matter of proving it, Bible inerrancy stands against all objections because it denies them any validity.

That's not demonstrating invalidity.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 10-29-2018 5:00 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7594
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 119 of 166 (842310)
10-29-2018 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Faith
10-29-2018 5:00 AM


Re: So when does Biblical Inerrancy stand up to the objections?
Faith writes:

You misunderstand the title. It's not a matter of proving it, Bible inerrancy stands against all objections because it denies them any validity.

Then you must also reject Heliocentrism and a round Earth on the same grounds that you reject evolution and an old Earth.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 10-29-2018 5:00 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15606
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 120 of 166 (842311)
10-29-2018 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Faith
10-29-2018 3:59 AM


Re: The Fall
Faith writes:

Here's the Westminster Confession of Faith on the Fall:


Here's the Bible on the "fall":
quote:
Genesis 3:22-23 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
1. They became like God.
2. They hadn't eaten from the Tree of Life.

Edited by ringo, : Corrected Bible reference.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Faith, posted 10-29-2018 3:59 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Prev1
...
67
8
9101112Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2018