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Author Topic:   Any practical use for Universal Common Ancestor?
Tangle
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Posts: 6352
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


(2)
Message 16 of 71 (843803)
11-21-2018 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Faith
11-21-2018 12:27 PM


Re: Name one.
Faith writes:

Name one use.

Knowledge.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Faith, posted 11-21-2018 12:27 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Faith, posted 11-21-2018 1:27 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 22 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-21-2018 1:55 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Faith
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Posts: 30162
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 17 of 71 (843804)
11-21-2018 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by ringo
11-21-2018 1:09 PM


Re: Name one.
Scientists can decide for themselves whether or not something is useful to them. They don't need to take your misunderstanding into account.

Obviously there simply is no objective usefulness to the ToE since all I'm getting is weird evasions.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by ringo, posted 11-21-2018 1:09 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by ringo, posted 11-21-2018 1:41 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30162
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 18 of 71 (843805)
11-21-2018 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Tangle
11-21-2018 1:26 PM


Re: Name one.
But it isn't even knowledge, it's just an elaborate cogitation.

And knowledge isn't a "use" anyway, as we are using that term here.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Tangle, posted 11-21-2018 1:26 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Tangle, posted 11-21-2018 1:48 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 19 of 71 (843806)
11-21-2018 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Faith
11-21-2018 1:26 PM


Re: Name one.
Faith writes:

Obviously there simply is no objective usefulness to the ToE since all I'm getting is weird evasions.


Deny, deny, deny. You're the one who's evading the objective examples that you've been given. You can deny the truth until the cows come home. Your evasion won't have one iota of effect on the usefulness of the Universal Common Ancestor.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 11-21-2018 1:26 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 11-21-2018 1:42 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30162
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 20 of 71 (843807)
11-21-2018 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by ringo
11-21-2018 1:41 PM


Re: Name one.
Do you have your right hand over your heart as you intone that credo?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by ringo, posted 11-21-2018 1:41 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by ringo, posted 11-21-2018 2:06 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6352
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


(3)
Message 21 of 71 (843808)
11-21-2018 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Faith
11-21-2018 1:27 PM


Re: Name one.
Faith writes:

But it isn't even knowledge,

We can decide that if and when we know.

And knowledge isn't a "use" anyway, as we are using that term here.

Who cares and why?

I ask why because I suspect the agenda. I have a friend that has spent the last 5 years researching the use of music in Jane Austin novels, is the OP equally interested in the study of 18th century literature or is it just this one tiny branch off a sub branch attached to a main branch off the trunk of biology? If so why?

You see, it's what we do, gather knowledge. We can't help it. Darwin spent years studying bloody barnacles. My tutor spent his whole life with ants. They don't do that because they think that one day it'll be useful, they do it because they just can't help themselves. And quite often it turns out to be useful and probably more often it isn't.

There's two parts to R&D; the D bit the practical bit, the R bit is sometimes useful sometimes not but always interesting for itself. And the result of endless search for stuff that interests us has built what we are today.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Faith, posted 11-21-2018 1:27 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 11-21-2018 2:09 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1895
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 22 of 71 (843810)
11-21-2018 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Tangle
11-21-2018 1:26 PM


Re: Name one.
Faith writes:

Name one use.


Knowledge.

This simple answer sums up the reason research in all aspects of evolutionary biology continues at an accelerating pace.

In entomology, the evolutionary history of species is under intense scrutiny now that rapid, cheap genetic sequencing is widely available. The knowledge gained from these studies have wide applications in agriculture, forestry, conservation and other human activities like global trade and the spread invasive species. Huge numbers of scientific papers are published dealing with these subjects and many more in entomological journals.

Knowledge of the adaptive and geographical spread of species in the past give us predictive power with regards to modern invasives. New genetic tools will allow us to manipulate the future evolution of many organisms for better or worse.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Tangle, posted 11-21-2018 1:26 PM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 11-21-2018 2:16 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 23 of 71 (843812)
11-21-2018 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Faith
11-21-2018 1:42 PM


Re: Name one.
Faith writes:

Do you have your right hand over your heart as you intone that credo?


Do you have your fingers in your ears as you adjust your blindfold?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 11-21-2018 1:42 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30162
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 24 of 71 (843813)
11-21-2018 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Tangle
11-21-2018 1:48 PM


Re: Name one.
I ask why because I suspect the agenda. I have a friend that has spent the last 5 years researching the use of music in Jane Austin novels, is the OP equally interested in the study of 18th century literature or is it just this one tiny branch off a sub branch attached to a main branch off the trunk of biology? If so why?

You see, it's what we do, gather knowledge. We can't help it. Darwin spent years studying bloody barnacles. My tutor spent his whole life with ants. They don't do that because they think that one day it'll be useful, they do it because they just can't help themselves. And quite often it turns out to be useful and probably more often it isn't.

I understand and I love that sort of stuff myself, reading about it I mean. But it's been claimed the ToE is useful and I'm saying no it isn't. I'm also saying it isn't even useful as knowledge. Darwin's pigeon breeding is very interesting too but it doesn't prove the ToE it only proves built-in variability. When the pigeons are released from controlled reproductive isolation they revert to pretty much their original form. They obviously have pigeon genetics and only pigeon genetics and all the variations lead nowhere except to different varieties of pigeons. When you select a trait and isolate your breeders to emphasize that trait, that trait will become elaborate in the offspring. It's a pigeon trait, it goes nowhere except to a variety of pigeon. Lenski's endless experiments never produced anything but e coli. There is absolutely NO evidence for the ToE AT ALL, NONE!!!!

So we don't even get knowledge, it remains this mental construction and nothing else. It's false but it keeps on being believed against the utter absense of any corroborating evidence. You'll never get anything but a pigeon from breeding pigeons but the varieties may be interesting science in themselves -- I'd expect them to show the limits of the pigeon genome myself but as long as the ToE is believed that is not likely to be noticed. This is how the theory can interfere with actual scientific knowledge. Likewise, the assumption that mutations are the source of healthy alleles, which is necessary to the ToE, is only going to mislead scientists into false expectations that cover up the fact that mutations are destructive events that should be the basis for aggressive methods of slowing down the disease processes that are the consequence of the Fall. Dangerous mistake.

There's two parts to R&D; the D bit the practical bit, the R bit is sometimes useful sometimes not but always interesting for itself. And the result of endless search for stuff that interests us has built what we are today.

But nothing you've said has anything to do with the ToE though it may be interesting science in itself, and again the challenge here is to the idea that the ToE is useful. In fact it is neither useful nor genuine scientific knowledge.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Tangle, posted 11-21-2018 1:48 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Tangle, posted 11-21-2018 3:44 PM Faith has responded

    
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1895
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 25 of 71 (843814)
11-21-2018 2:11 PM


Another useful application of evolutionary theory
The effects of climate change on natural populations and our domesticated organisms can often be predicted using knowledge of their evolutionary history. Despite denials by some ignorant creationists, scientists around the world are using the science of evolutionary biology to understand how life on our planet is reacting to a changing climate.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 11-21-2018 2:18 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

    
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8814
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


(1)
Message 26 of 71 (843816)
11-21-2018 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by AZPaul3
11-21-2018 1:17 PM


Re: Name one.
No. Because I don't want to.

That'd be a lousy answer from Faith to any question and it seems a lousy answer to me here. I can't think of anything for chemistry myself.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by AZPaul3, posted 11-21-2018 1:17 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by AZPaul3, posted 11-21-2018 5:48 PM NosyNed has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30162
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 27 of 71 (843818)
11-21-2018 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Tanypteryx
11-21-2018 1:55 PM


Re: Name one.
None of that has anything to do with the ToE, it's about variation within the Kind which is absolutely limited to the Kind. And all the observed effects you are tlaking about are amply explained by that fact. You are talking about microevolution.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-21-2018 1:55 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30162
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 28 of 71 (843819)
11-21-2018 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Tanypteryx
11-21-2018 2:11 PM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
To the extent that this is going on it is about microevolution, period. You are assuming the Toe, but there isn't one iota of evidence for evolution beyond the Kind. As I said above, this claim that the ToE is useful to the sciences will turn out to be the result of confusion with variation within the Kind or Species, otherwise known as "microevolution," or confusion with the actual results of the separate sciences without any input from the ToE whatever.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-21-2018 2:11 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by PaulK, posted 11-21-2018 2:28 PM Faith has responded
 Message 30 by ringo, posted 11-21-2018 2:29 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
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Posts: 14547
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 29 of 71 (843821)
11-21-2018 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Faith
11-21-2018 2:18 PM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
quote:

gto the extent that this is going on it is about microevolution, period

Microevolution is still evolution.

quote:

. There isn't one iota of evidence for evolution beyond the Kind

I really don’t know why you tell these lies. The nested hierarchy of Linnaean taxonomy, the genetic evidence of distant relationships, the many transitional fossils are all evidence of common ancestry well beyond the limits creationists would accept. There is not one iota of evidence that many unrelated “kinds” exist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 11-21-2018 2:18 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 11-21-2018 2:32 PM PaulK has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 30 of 71 (843822)
11-21-2018 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Faith
11-21-2018 2:18 PM


Re: Another useful application of evolutionary theory
Faith writes:

To the extent that this is going on it is about microevolution, period.


Read the OP: "I've been looking for a practical use in applied science for the information that all life on earth evolved from a microbe that existed billions of years ago...." It clearly is NOT about "microevolution of kinds", as you would call it.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 11-21-2018 2:18 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
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