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Author Topic:   Christianity Needs to Return to Being a Good Example
14174dm
Member
Posts: 141
From: Cincinnati OH
Joined: 10-12-2015
Member Rating: 10.0


(2)
Message 16 of 35 (844026)
11-24-2018 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Porkncheese
11-24-2018 6:00 AM


Re: Forced?
Are you seriously having to ask?

How about Catholic hospital systems that overwhelmiingly control some markets and require medical treatment to follow Catholic teaching. Specifics include refusal to allow abortions for mother’s health for fetus that will not survive birth.

Abortion laws that dont include exceptions for rape, incest and mother’s health.

Abstinence only sex education rather than full education.
Allowing non-medical people to give birth control information even if wrong.

Blocking adoptions by same sex couples.

Preventing same sex couples from getting marriage licenses.

Allowing pharmacists to refuse to dispense legal drugs under valid presciptions.

Blue laws restricting Sunday sales.

Numerous small town sporting events and public meetings that begin with Christian prayers.

Installation of 10 Commandments on public property and sometimes with public funds.

Edited by 14174dm, : Spelling


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Porkncheese, posted 11-24-2018 6:00 AM Porkncheese has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Capt Stormfield, posted 11-24-2018 3:37 PM 14174dm has not yet responded
 Message 20 by 14174dm, posted 11-24-2018 5:28 PM 14174dm has not yet responded

    
Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 398
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009
Member Rating: 5.0


(2)
Message 17 of 35 (844042)
11-24-2018 3:24 PM


Of course the point obvious point here is that the thing that would make Christians more appealing in this scenario is their actual actions, not their beliefs. Those actions would be viewed as "good" for the simple reason that they are the naturally evolved human behavior possessed by most of us. If a majority of Christians started behaving like me, it wouldn't make me want to be a Christian, it would make me wonder why they had been so fucked up for so long.

The answer to that question would be, of course, belief in Christian superstitions, and the exhortations in those superstitions to force themselves on others.


Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 11-26-2018 2:37 PM Capt Stormfield has not yet responded

  
Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 398
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 18 of 35 (844043)
11-24-2018 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Faith
11-23-2018 5:50 PM


Res ipsa loquitur.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Faith, posted 11-23-2018 5:50 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 398
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009
Member Rating: 5.0


(1)
Message 19 of 35 (844047)
11-24-2018 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by 14174dm
11-24-2018 2:25 PM


Re: Forced?
Not to mention the brainless asshole (mercifully removed from the gene pool) who was prepared to put the lives of the Sentinelese population at risk by illegally exposing them to a population of microorganisms to which they have no resistance. The ignorance and arrogance of his actions (how did he plan to communicate with them?) makes him a poster-child for evangelical thinking.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by 14174dm, posted 11-24-2018 2:25 PM 14174dm has not yet responded

  
14174dm
Member
Posts: 141
From: Cincinnati OH
Joined: 10-12-2015
Member Rating: 10.0


(2)
Message 20 of 35 (844061)
11-24-2018 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by 14174dm
11-24-2018 2:25 PM


Re: Forced?
After my last rant I will be out there the people I look up to, those whose works match their words.

Those who run and volunteer to help at the local food pantries and homeless shelters.

Those who give half or more of their vacation and spend their own money to take youth on service trips to Appalachia, inner cityies, and third world countries.

Those who open their homes to the homeless and lost.

Those that teach adults in the evenings and/or volunteer at inner city schols.

I know many Christians that live their love. Notice that they act out an example rather than force behavior through laws.


This message is a reply to:
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Stile
Member
Posts: 3282
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 21 of 35 (844162)
11-26-2018 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by AZPaul3
11-23-2018 3:42 PM


AZPaul3 writes:

Oh, god. A reasonable and enlightened Christian church?

Perhaps one day.
Or perhaps it needs to be another religion, who knows?

Hopefully it would be nothing more than just a brief respite for the religion on its way to extinction.

I believe that religion is required, in some form.
Not any specific religion... just the idea of gaining personal solace through having faith that "things will work out eventually."

Not for me, I personally don't need such a thing.

But people are all different. Just because something works fine for you and I (or even a vast majority) doesn't mean it will work fine for everyone.
Just as there are people who find it comforting to be rooted in brutally honest reality, there are also other people who find it comforting to be connected to limitless imagination.

I also happen to like that a variety of people exist.
I think that if we were all the same... things would get boring and stagnant.


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 Message 6 by AZPaul3, posted 11-23-2018 3:42 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3282
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 22 of 35 (844163)
11-26-2018 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Faith
11-23-2018 5:50 PM


Good ways and bad ways - just choose the good ways
Faith writes:

Stile writes:

Gone are the days of forcing your views on others and expecting to be respected simply because some words escaped your mouth

And you go on to a story about a missionary who was killed by the tribe he supposedly intended to convert.

Yes, because it was a story about a man who attempted to force his views on others by some words escaping his mouth.

But where does this idea come from of forcing anybody to convert

Missionaries, witnessing... things like that.
Any idea from anyone who insists others should believe as they do because they know they have it right... without being able to show that they have it right at all.

Missionaries have often gone to foreign countries or remote tribes and stayed quite a while before anyone showed any interest in Christianity.

This may be a way to do it in a good way. Depends on the specifics.
But yes - setting up a church and informing the curious people who stop by - sounds like a very non-forceful way of evangelizing.

Of course - bribing fishermen to break the law in order to obtain passage onto an island you are aware that contains people who want to be left alone above all else - well, that's a bad way to do it. A bad, forceful way.

But when they do succeed it's by WINNING the people to Christ by persuasion, through preaching and so on.

Sometimes forceful, sometimes not.
I'm saying there are good ways to win people over, and bad ways. Stick to the good ways.

Of course you would like the idea of leaving everybody to believe as they please but that completely ignores the fact that Christianity is the only way anyone can ever be saved to eternal life and that is the reason for the great commission Christ gave us, to take this good news to everyone in the world so that they would have the same opportunity we have had, to be saved from this fallen world into a happy eternity.

You can consider your great commission complete.
Everyone knows that Christianity exists.
Those who want to know more, can come to you.
Those who do not believe the same as you can make their own decision - just as you have made yours.

This idea that we should just be nicey nice and never preach the gospel to anyone is actually a sentence to eternal misery for those we encounter. If we really love people we want the best for them.

Forcing your beliefs on others is not wanting the best for them - it's wanting the best for you.
If you want what's best for others what you do is listen to them, and do what they want for themselves. If you want to change what they want for themselves then set a good example and hope they see it and decide to change. Do not set a bad example and give into your arrogance and attempt to force your beliefs on anyone else because you know what's best.

I think you should preach, though - to those who want to listen.
Just don't preach to those who do not want to listen - that's being forceful, and it's wrong.

Just before the American revolution there was David Brainerd, a young missionary to a Native American tribe who befriended them, and lived in a tent through the winter praying for them, a short time before he died of tuberculosis.

Missionaries suffering through certain conditions doesn't mean they were good people. I'm sure the fellow who went to the island suffered there, as well as in many past situations. It doesn't make what he did a good thing.
It doesn't mean they were bad people either. I'm sure they've all helped someone, at some point, who actually wanted the help. But anytime they help someone who doesn't want it... it's a bad thing.

Edited by Stile, : Fixing quotes

Edited by Stile, : Adding additional part of message

Edited by Stile, : Adding additional part of message

Edited by Stile, : Adding last part of message


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Faith, posted 11-23-2018 5:50 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3282
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 23 of 35 (844164)
11-26-2018 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Porkncheese
11-24-2018 6:00 AM


Re: Forced?
Porkncheese writes:

Stile writes:

Should Christianity continue to try and force itself on anyone and everyone they can?

How exactly do they force themselves onto people in 2018?

Any time anyone provides unsolicited information to others they are forcing themselves onto people.

In 2018 it is expected of advertising and salesman.
It should not be something associated with religion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Porkncheese, posted 11-24-2018 6:00 AM Porkncheese has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by ringo, posted 11-26-2018 10:49 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply
 Message 26 by Phat, posted 11-26-2018 2:55 PM Stile has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15791
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(3)
Message 24 of 35 (844169)
11-26-2018 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Stile
11-26-2018 9:08 AM


Re: Forced?
Stile writes:

Any time anyone provides unsolicited information to others they are forcing themselves onto people.

In 2018 it is expected of advertising and salesman.


Jehovah's Witnesses = popup ads.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Stile, posted 11-26-2018 9:08 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11642
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 25 of 35 (844193)
11-26-2018 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Capt Stormfield
11-24-2018 3:24 PM


Conversion From Foot Soldier To Captain
Capt Stormfield writes:

If a majority of Christians started behaving like me, it wouldn't make me want to be a Christian, it would make me wonder why they had been so fucked up for so long.

How is it that you behave? I'm curious...perhaps you can convert me...through humor if nothing else!


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Capt Stormfield, posted 11-24-2018 3:24 PM Capt Stormfield has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11642
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 26 of 35 (844195)
11-26-2018 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Stile
11-26-2018 9:08 AM


Individuality vs Authoritarian Communion
Stile writes:

Any time anyone provides unsolicited information to others they are forcing themselves onto people.

Hmmmm...
Google Dictionary writes:

un·so·lic·it·ed ˌənsəˈlisidəd
adjective
adjective unsolicited
not asked for; given or done voluntarily.
uninvited unsought unasked-for unrequested

But don't we all give each other information unasked for? In a forum such as this, we post primarily to solicit responses from others, right? Even now as I type this post I am hoping for some replies and comments...arguments, even...some sort of debate...anything to stimulate my bored brain!

Stile writes:

It should not be something associated with religion.

Granted. But this is not a church...its a discussion board. Religion and Politics pop up frequently. To be honest, I enjoy arguments with online friends. ringo is my current favorite...I pick on him incessantly and he usually responds...though I think the Library closes on Saturdays because I never see him post then.

Stile writes:

Gone are the days of forcing your views on others and expecting to be respected simply because some words escaped your mouth.

As far as respect goes, simply replying to me constitutes respect in my mind. It is irrelevant whether we agree or not...as long as we respect each other.

Stile writes:

I also happen to like that a variety of people exist.
I think that if we were all the same... things would get boring and stagnant.

I totally agree!
To be honest, if everyone at EvC became a Christian, I would feel as if I lost something...I value each members individuality more than I do their profession of faith in Jesus Christ. Faith, of course, disagrees.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Stile, posted 11-26-2018 9:08 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Stile, posted 11-27-2018 10:11 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11642
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 27 of 35 (844196)
11-26-2018 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Faith
11-23-2018 5:50 PM


And One For The Peanut Gallery
Faith writes:

Missionaries have often gone to foreign countries or remote tribes and stayed quite a while before anyone showed any interest in Christianity. They learn the language, translate the Bible into it, and talk to people about Christ. It is so far from any notion of forcing anything the idea is absurd. In some cases they have no success at all, occasionally the missionaries have been killed, (five young missionaries were killed by the Auca tribe of South America in the fifties just as they landed on their beach. A while later the wives of two of them went to the Auca and lived with them and took the place of their missionary husbands.) Sometimes missionaries were made into soup for a cannibal tribe. But when they do succeed it's by WINNING the people to Christ by persuasion, through preaching and so on.

Of course you would like the idea of leaving everybody to believe as they please but that completely ignores the fact that Christianity is the only way anyone can ever be saved to eternal life and that is the reason for the "great commission" Christ gave us, to take this good news to everyone in the world so that they would have the same opportunity we have had, to be saved from this fallen world into a happy eternity. This idea that we should just be nicey nice and never preach the gospel to anyone is actually a sentence to eternal misery for those we encounter. If we really love people we want the best for them.

OK, let's discuss a hypothetical. Let's say that both you and I were sent to EvC by God to evangelize the community. Years passed. I became more like them while you stayed independent and absolute in your belief that the Bible was literally true even in regards to creationism vs evolutionism.

Tomorrow, the world changes on a dime. A global war breaks out. Fortunes are lost...even here among our online community. Several members may even die.

Would you at that point care more about how everyone was doing or would you at that point care more whether or not all of our members accepted Jesus into their hearts to save them from the coming wrath?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Faith, posted 11-23-2018 5:50 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 11-26-2018 6:30 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30230
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 28 of 35 (844212)
11-26-2018 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
11-26-2018 3:01 PM


Re: And One For The Peanut Gallery
I don't know but probably both.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 11-26-2018 3:01 PM Phat has not yet responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3282
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 29 of 35 (844251)
11-27-2018 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Phat
11-26-2018 2:55 PM


Re: Individuality vs Authoritarian Communion
Phat writes:

But don't we all give each other information unasked for?

Many times, yes. Sometimes, usually between friends, if the person decides they find the information useful anyway it's okay.
Most of the time, though, we call it "being rude."

Either way, it's not something a religion should be associated with.

In a forum such as this, we post primarily to solicit responses from others, right?

Posting on a forum wishes for a response.
It doesn't really solicit one, though.
You're not forcing someone to give you attention, you're just hoping to get attention.

It's the difference between posting a public message vs spam email.
Posting a public message - anyone can choose to read or ignore - this is how religions should be getting their information out.
Spam email - forcing an intrusion into someone else's life without giving them the choice to request or deny it - this is not how religions should be getting their information out.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Phat, posted 11-26-2018 2:55 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 11-27-2018 10:46 AM Stile has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11642
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 30 of 35 (844255)
11-27-2018 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Stile
11-27-2018 10:11 AM


Re: Individuality vs Authoritarian Communion
stile writes:

if the person decides they find the information useful anyway it's okay.

I think that I am more interested in why a person dismisses my information than in why they would or should accept it. Its like I said before...I'm not so concerned if everyone at EvC accepted a Gospel message as I am about why they question and doubt the messages that I have accepted. I don't buy into the traditional Christian assumption that people who don't hear the message are doomed for eternity.

You're not forcing someone to give you attention, you're just hoping to get attention.
Exactly. Occasionally I get somewhat rude with ringo, challenging him as to why he thinks the way he does. He has a thick skin, however, and throw it right back at me harder still. This type of interaction is what makes forums fun. Even though we consciously want and expect people to agree with us, at a deeper level it is somehow more satisfying when they don't.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Stile, posted 11-27-2018 10:11 AM Stile has not yet responded

  
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