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Member (Idle past 93 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Elites | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member (Idle past 93 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Elites. Left and right both invoke the idea of elites as those who need to be resisted in the name of the average dude. Bernie Sanders rails against elites. Jeremy Corbin rails against elites. But Donald Trump and Nigel Farage rail against elites too. Are they talking about the same people or do left and right have very different ideas on who constitutes the elite?
Who are these elites? Are you one of them? What power do they have? How did they get this power? Should we take this power away from them? And if so, how? Elite is the buzzword of political disparagement at the moment. So I think it’s worth exploring the differing notions of who constitutes the elite. Interesting article on this topic that could form basis of discussion Link Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
From your article:
When left populists rail against elites they are generally referring to economic and political power. Their target is the richest 1% that owns half the world’s wealth: the newspaper moguls, bankers, political donors and corporate lobbyists; Tony Blair, the Clintons, the Bushes, Old Etonians, Old Harrovians, Oxford, Cambridge, Yale, Harvard, Bullingdon. Those people who run things unchecked from a position of absolute and relative privilege that is often inherited. (...)But when rightwing populists focus on elites they are mostly referring to culture. Their targets are filmmakers, actors, lecturers, journalists, globalists, spiritualists, scientists and vegans; the Clintons, Hollywood, Londoners, New Yorkers, Silicon Valley, Sussex and Berkeley. These are the people the right claim are responsible for shaping what people can see or hear, and limiting what they can say.(...) they evoke a mythical, homogenous people and culture, only to claim it is being besieged by cosmopolitans, multiculturalists and immigrants. I've often noticed this as well. I am unimpressed with most of the arguments...primarily from the Right, as they often parrot what other fellow conservatives and media outlets say. There is a lack of original thought and critical thinking in these arguments.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Straggler Member (Idle past 93 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
George Clooney - I grew up in Kentucky. I sold insurance door to door. I sold ladies’ shoes. I worked at an all-night liquor store. I would buy suits that were too big and too long and cut the bottom of the pants off to make ties so I’d have a tie to go on job interviews. The idea that I’m somehow the ‘Hollywood elite’ and this guy who takes a shit in a gold toilet is somehow the man of the people is laughable.
Is he right?
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4443 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
George Clooney - I grew up in Kentucky. I sold insurance door to door. I sold ladies’ shoes. I worked at an all-night liquor store. I would buy suits that were too big and too long and cut the bottom of the pants off to make ties so I’d have a tie to go on job interviews. The idea that I’m somehow the ‘Hollywood elite’ and this guy who takes a shit in a gold toilet is somehow the man of the people is laughable. Is he right? Yep.What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
There are people on both sides who dont fit the stereotypes. Does that really affect the overall arguments? Or are there really any arguments apart from sound bytes??
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Straggler Member (Idle past 93 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Elsewhere online I have been accused of being part of the metropolitan elite. It was a discussion about Brexit specifically. But when I revealed that I lived in London, had a job in IT and was vaguely left leaning politically I was effectively shot down as unknowing of the issues faced by the common man because I was so far removed from their experience by my apparently illustriously detached situation.
I have never thought of myself as elite and it came as quite a shock to learn that others, those on the political right it seems, classed me as such.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Straggler writes: To me, it's about taking sides and identifying who it is whom you think is actually against you and your family interests. Two examples in my own life and circle:
I think those on the left and those on the right are talking almost different languages on this topic. To me Trump (for example) is so patently, clearly and demonstrably part of the elite that it’s undeniable hypocrisy on his part to be railing against the elites in the way that he does. But to his supporters (and presumably to him) the fact he is an inherited millionaire who has spent his entire life in the presence of wealth and power has nothing to do with his elite-ness. Steve---grew up religious. His Mama "baptized" him in front of her couch when he was 7. They always attended Assemblies Of God churches where people would speak in tongues and pray for hours. Lots of emotional hype. Yet a very poor family. They were clearly pro-Trump in this last election. To Steve, his "enemies" in life are the immigrants who have always taken his jobs and worked for less, keeping him down. Granted he has no education. As an American, he feels cheated by the government...who allowed immigrants to work the low-level jobs for even less than Steve would have done. He also believes in the End Times theology and sees the government as part of a global conspiracy against the people of God. "The Globalists".His conservative church saw a good candidate in Donald Trump...he sold them the idea that they...the poor forgotten masses...would be forgotten no longer. My second example is another man of modest means...an atheist and a frequent poster on EvC. He sees Trump and his wealthy Capitalist Cronies as the clear enemy and is a supporter of a larger working class who helps one another rather than competes against one another. Even though the wealthy 5% are part of the problem, he also sees a competitive middle class who keeps the poor of the world under them as an equal if not greater key to the problem. He frequently calls me out on my claims to Christianity, arguing that the Jesus of the Bible was an early advocate of the system of equality and universal brotherhood that he envisions. Two poor men. Two diametrically opposite views. What do you make of it? Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Straggler Member (Idle past 93 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
I think those on the left and those on the right are talking almost different languages on this topic. To me Trump (for example) is so patently, clearly and demonstrably part of the elite that it’s undeniable hypocrisy on his part to be railing against the elites in the way that he does. But to his supporters (and presumably to him) the fact he is an inherited millionaire who has spent his entire life in the presence of wealth and power has nothing to do with his elite-ness. Instead it’s something about his cultural references. A poorly paid academic who lives in New York and enjoys opera would be the subject of metropolitan elite ire, whilst Donald Trump is lauded as in touch with the common man because he cites cheeseburgers as his favourite meal (or whatever).
It’s the different criteria being applied that I’m interested in here. Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
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Chiroptera Inactive Member
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Yeah, when US conservatives use the word "elite", they seem to be complaining about experts in various fields which do careful research on various problems and then analyze their results while allowing other highly trained experts to critique their work...and then point out that the Republicans are wrong. About everything.
Hell hath no fury like a white man scorned. If you take nothing else from the Senate’s confirmation of Brett Kavanaugh, take that much. -- Kai Wright |
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 376 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined:
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elite /əˈlēt,āˈlēt/ noun noun: elite; plural noun: elites 1.a select part of a group that is superior to the rest in terms of ability or qualities. 2.a size of letter in typewriting, with 12 characters to the inch (about 4.7 to the centimeter). I would have to say that Trump is closer to the second definition than he is to the first.
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
So I think it’s worth exploring the differing notions of who constitutes the elite. There are certainly elitists in this world in the sense that some people wield tremendous influence, resources, wealth and power that have the ability to manufacture outcomes that might not have come to fruition without a little push from them. The problem though, as you shared, is that there is a sense of ambiguity when it comes to deciding who said elites are. Whenever somebody brings up "The Elites" or "The Globalists" or whatever other buzzword to denote some outsider with a vision contrary to your own, to me it is akin to "They/Them." "They" are so often nameless people who embody whatever the antithesis or inverse of your own belief system or set of values. And of course, in true dramatic fashion, everything they do is underhanded, nefarious, and pernicious. "They" are a convenient scapegoat to explain away all our social ills, whether real, imagined, or exaggerated. Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given."Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine
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Straggler Member (Idle past 93 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Yet it seems to work. Watch any of the populist leaders of the moment condemning the elites and their followers seem to have an emotional, even if not a definitional, understanding of who they are railing against. And that’s the key I guess. We all have a feeling for who we mean by the elite. But there is a clear difference between the use of the term between left and right.
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member
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Yet it seems to work. Watch any of the populist leaders of the moment condemning the elites and their followers seem to have an emotional, even if not a definitional, understanding of who they are railing against. And that’s the key I guess. We all have a feeling for who we mean by the elite. But there is a clear difference between the use of the term between left and right. I suppose that's the beauty of it. People who most likely would conform to the stereotype of being an elite can now distance themselves away from it and place it on to someone else. Donald Trump, for instance. He's a billionaire and has been since he was born. He's been loud, brash, arrogant, and in constant need for attention since I can remember. He's been a fixture in my life stretching back to the early 80's. Obviously he meets the criteria of what an elitist would be. But he manages to distance himself from it by saying that he's a Washington outsider. He has no political baggage like the other candidates. Those "Elitists" are corrupted Washingtonian insiders.... Trump is here to "Drain the Swamp" against the Elites. "Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine
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Straggler Member (Idle past 93 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Yes. And....
Donald Trump seems to be a classic example of a member of the elite in so many ways yet his followers look at him as someone who somehow shares their cultural values. Watching Fox news, eating cheeseburgers and having disdain for journalists, academics, politicians and experts seems to resonate with his supporters in such a way that his obvious financial elitism can be effectively ignored. He’s one of us in a way that seems to matter more than his obvious gold plated lifestyle.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Whenever somebody brings up "The Elites" or "The Globalists" or whatever other buzzwords to denote some outsider with a vision contrary to your own, to me it is akin to "They/Them." "They" are so often nameless people who embody whatever the antithesis or inverse of your own belief system or set of values. And of course, in true dramatic fashion, everything they do is underhanded, nefarious, and pernicious. Well said. I myself claim to be a political moderate. I vote based on which candidate I feel would help me the most. Obama and the Democrats support unionism more than do the Republicans, and my job pays me $5.00 more an hour due to union contracts than the market value of my position. I am becoming more aware of my own bias as well as the bias of either political party and/or left vs Right Ideology. "They" are a convenient scapegoat to explain away all our social ills, whether real, imagined, or exaggerated. Got this from the internet...it sums up some key points:
quote: Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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