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Author Topic:   A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism
Phat
Member
Posts: 11642
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 16 of 137 (844428)
11-29-2018 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by ringo
11-29-2018 11:22 AM


The Builder and the Landlord.
I've never understood why believers conflate the builder with the landlord.
What do you mean? I guess I don't understand your question---
The earth is the Lords but the world belongs to the devil.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by ringo, posted 11-29-2018 11:22 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by ringo, posted 11-30-2018 10:36 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11642
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 17 of 137 (844447)
11-30-2018 6:57 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Percy
11-29-2018 11:41 AM


Re: Reply To Percy
percy writes:

My internal unevidenced feeling is that He gives purpose to the universe and is not a personal God. He may not even know or care about us on this tiny planet orbiting an average sun in a sparse portion of an arm of an unremarkable galaxy.

Looking at GDRs argument in the other rapture thread, he apparently believes that Scripture was how humans interpreted God speaking to them. As GDR says, he believes that "the authors got it right." Believers seem to choose belief based on trusting those who inspire and persuade them. Skeptics are more likely to trust hard evidence and are unimpressed with the storytellers.(or the stories themselves)

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Percy, posted 11-29-2018 11:41 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Percy, posted 11-30-2018 9:12 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18004
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 18 of 137 (844452)
11-30-2018 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
11-30-2018 6:57 AM


Re: Reply To Percy
Phat writes:

Looking at GDRs argument in the other rapture thread, he apparently believes that Scripture was how humans interpreted God speaking to them.

Are you sure you understand GDR's position? In Message 1063 of the Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith thread about the gospel writers he says, "They aren't saying that God told them this..."

As GDR says, he believes that "the authors got it right."

GDR also freely makes his own personal interpretations and picks and chooses among passages seeking those he thinks better reflect God's nature as he sees it (incredibly apparently rejecting the entire OT in favor of the NT) in order to create a God that is, as Ringo so aptly puts it, "palatable" to him.

Believers seem to choose belief based on trusting those who inspire and persuade them. Skeptics are more likely to trust hard evidence and are unimpressed with the storytellers.(or the stories themselves)

The Koran and the Book of Mormon tell plenty of stories, too. There need to be credible reasons for rejecting them and accepting the Bible's.

Religion is a scam because it attracts so many con men, hustlers and swindlers, though it also attracts a great many very good people. We can't forget that religions' history includes both good and bad people, including those who wrote scripture. Oftentimes the good and the bad are combined in the same person. Look at all the Catholic priests who either protected sexual abusers, turned a blind eye to it, or actually committed it. They also performed many very good works. And just because the Catholic Church is receiving all the attention doesn't mean that the problem is confined to the Catholics. It just means that in other churches the abuse is probably more evenly distributed between the sexes, since there's no vow of celibacy. For example see The sin of silence: The epidemic of denial about sexual abuse in the evangelical church.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 11-30-2018 6:57 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15791
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 19 of 137 (844454)
11-30-2018 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
11-29-2018 1:45 PM


Re: The Builder and the Landlord.
Phat writes:

What do you mean? I guess I don't understand your question---
The earth is the Lords but the world belongs to the devil.


No, it has nothing to do with gods and devils. I'm wondering why people conflate the builder with the landlord. In real life, the builder builds and then moves on to the next project. He doesn't stick around to "rule" what he built. So why would you think that the Creator and the God that you pray to are the same entity?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 11-29-2018 1:45 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 11-30-2018 11:34 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11642
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 20 of 137 (844457)
11-30-2018 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by ringo
11-30-2018 10:36 AM


Re: The Builder and the Landlord.
ringo writes:

In real life, the builder builds and then moves on to the next project. He doesn't stick around to "rule" what he built. So why would you think that the Creator and the God that you pray to are the same entity?

I suppose because monotheism is simpler and more plausible. I don't believe in some petty vengeful OT God. I believe that the Creator of all seen and unseen "so loved the world"...meaning the people...that He desires Communion with us.
Think of the building project not in terms of planets, galaxies, and matter. Think of it as the creation and supervision unto completion of a living prototype---humanity.

Why do you always use the word "rule"? Why do you refer to such a Deity as an alien overlord? The goal of the project is voluntary joyful communion---not mandatory compliance. Granted you can (and likely will) make a case for the latter. Which is also why I don't simply take the Bible as written. Common sense tells me that often the stories don't make sense for a supposedly all wise and logical Deity to consider. Faith and my biblical literalist friends always passively say that His ways are not our ways...yada yada yada...but I ascribe more intelligence into a Creator of all seen and unseen.

If I were to trust only in ever-evolving human wisdom and understanding, I fear that we as a species wouldn't make it and would fail at some point.

Open Theism seems palatable to me because it allows both our free wills and also allows Gods involvement. It seems rather unfair IF God were to foreknow who fails and gets damned beforehand.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by ringo, posted 11-30-2018 10:36 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by ringo, posted 11-30-2018 11:54 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15791
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 21 of 137 (844461)
11-30-2018 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
11-30-2018 11:34 AM


Re: The Builder and the Landlord.
Phat writes:

I suppose because monotheism is simpler and more plausible.


How is it "more plausible" when it goes against what we know in the real world?

Phat writes:

Why do you always use the word "rule"?


Why not?
quote:
Psalm 103:19 The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all.

Phat writes:

Common sense tells me that often the stories don't make sense for a supposedly all wise and logical Deity to consider.


Why are you assuming an all-wise and logical Deity in the first place?

Phat writes:

Open Theism seems palatable to me because it allows both our free wills and also allows Gods involvement.


So it's just another copout to escape the obvious nonsense of conventional theology.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 11-30-2018 11:34 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 11-30-2018 11:58 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11642
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 22 of 137 (844462)
11-30-2018 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by ringo
11-30-2018 11:54 AM


Re: The Builder and the Landlord.
Why are you assuming an all-wise and logical Deity in the first place?
Because no other would qualify worthy of worship or even respect. We can just do it all ourselves. Which is what many of you believe to be our only option anyway.

And as I said before, If I were to trust only in ever-evolving human wisdom and understanding, I fear that we as a species wouldn't make it and would fail at some point.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by ringo, posted 11-30-2018 11:54 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by ringo, posted 11-30-2018 12:03 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15791
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 23 of 137 (844466)
11-30-2018 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Phat
11-30-2018 11:58 AM


Re: The Builder and the Landlord.
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

Why are you assuming an all-wise and logical Deity in the first place?


Because no other would qualify worthy of worship or even respect.

Well, worshiping God is a nonsensical concept to begin with. How petty is He that He needs or wants to be worshiped?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 11-30-2018 11:58 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 11-30-2018 4:16 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11642
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 24 of 137 (844467)
11-30-2018 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Faith
11-29-2018 5:09 AM


Re: Open Theism is a heresy
Ultimately, open theism fails in that it attempts to explain the unexplainable—the relationship between God's foreknowledge and mankind's free will. Just as extreme forms of Calvinism fail in that they make human beings nothing more than pre-programmed robots, so open theism fails in that it rejects God's true omniscience and sovereignty. God must be understood through faith, for “without faith it is impossible to please God” (Hebrews 11:6a). Open theism is, therefore, not scriptural. It is simply another way for finite man to try to understand an infinite God. Open theism should be rejected by followers of Christ. While open theism is an explanation for the relationship between God's foreknowledge and human free will, it is not the biblical explanation.

Why is there only one way to interpret scripture? And why should we trust those who teach it? What makes them any wiser than any other teacher? Note the opponent in the open theism debate...John E.Sanders. His resume is not that of an intellectual slouch. What makes him wrong? And why do the other scholars have an inside track on what is right...simply by believing? Did God give them extra wisdom??

John E.Sanders Bio writes:

Th.D., University of South Africa, 1996
M.A., Wartburg Theological Seminary, 1987
B.A., Trinity College, 1979

Teaching and Research Interests:

Cognitive Linguistics
History of Christianity and Christian Thought
Conceptions of God and Divine Providence
Evangelical Understandings of Hell and the Unevangelized

Personal Statement:

I enjoy the interdisciplinary nature of religious studies and my teaching reflects this. My work draws upon the disciplines of history, philosophy, biblical studies, and linguistics. This is an unusual blend of expertise since experts in these disciplines seldom engage those outside their specialty. For me, this is a frui tful mix that helps me pursue various questions of interest. I do a great deal of speaking, so my background in these areas enables me to interact with a wide array of scholars from whom I am eager to learn. Though I have some firm beliefs, I consider myself a pilgrim on the way of truth, willing to learn from others. In the classroom I try to model this attitude as I pose questions which help my students think issues through and defend perspectives with which I disagree. In particular, I enjoy presenting unfamiliar ideas to my students and helping them understand how various beliefs made sense to people in other times and places.

Some of my recent publications address the debates about the nature of hell in North American evangelical Christianity as well as debates about the nature of divine providence. My current research applies the field of cognitive linguistics to biblical, theological, moral, and epistemic topics. Cognitive linguistics is about how humans think about or conceptualize experiences in life. I am deeply interested in the embodied nature of human reasoning and, in particular, conceptual metaphor theory.

Is he wrong simply by not being part of the "inerrancy club"?

Finally...why would a sod like Tangle simply come along and say that despite all of his degrees and learning, John E.Sanders knows no more than anyone else who has read the book??

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Faith, posted 11-29-2018 5:09 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Faith, posted 12-01-2018 6:03 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11642
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 25 of 137 (844472)
11-30-2018 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by ringo
11-30-2018 12:03 PM


Re: The Builder and the Landlord.
I dont think its so much worship as it is respect and obedience. If the commander has more experience than the foot soldier, the soldier would do well to listen. We humans are quite early in our development and would need a Being or Deity with intergalactic wisdom and experience...not to mention the equally mysterious realm of inner space. Of course our psychology of understanding the nuances of human behavior is increasing, and ringo may be right---we may need to do it all ourselves---but belief in God is a rational belief in a superior Being that wants to help us grow.

Now can everyone see why I wanted one of the guidelines for this topic to be freely imagining God rather than pinning Him down to some random scripture that has Him ordering baby killings? Those sorts of arguments are so lame...it is quite obvious that God was being made up (or embellished) even back then.

Nothing has changed---except that I would argue that we will never outgrow our need for such a communion. On the contrary, we will grow to need it more and more. Mark my words.

Add by Edit: About the OT God---if Open Theism is a reality, such a God would even then have allowed its warrior tribal people to do their thing in regards to survival of the culture they lived in. Granted such a Deity could well be viewed as cruel---much like today's arguments that if God exists, why such a messed up world? Open Theism would allow for the responsibility being placed on humans (much the same as if there were no God anyway) ostensibly to help us grow and learn so as to be ready for our next assignment after Earth.

Edited by Phat, : added jabberwocky


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by ringo, posted 11-30-2018 12:03 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Tangle, posted 11-30-2018 6:13 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 27 by ringo, posted 12-01-2018 10:49 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6397
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 26 of 137 (844478)
11-30-2018 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
11-30-2018 4:16 PM


Re: The Builder and the Landlord.
Phat writes:

Nothing has changed---except that I would argue that we will never outgrow our need for such a communion. On the contrary, we will grow to need it more and more. Mark my words.

You're just speaking for yourself again. The trend in modern Western democracies is quite obviously the reverse. The trend is less and less.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 11-30-2018 4:16 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15791
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(2)
Message 27 of 137 (844516)
12-01-2018 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
11-30-2018 4:16 PM


Re: The Builder and the Landlord.
Phat writes:

I dont think its so much worship as it is respect and obedience.


It can't be obedience. You claim that we're supposed to use our free will.

Phat writes:

If the commander has more experience than the foot soldier, the soldier would do well to listen.


That would make sense if the commander was anywhere near the battlefield. But a commander sitting in the Pentagon often messes things up for the soldier on the actual battlefield who has experience of that particular battlefield.

Phat writes:

We humans are quite early in our development and would need a Being or Deity with intergalactic wisdom and experience...


Clearly not. People who don't follow your religion - or any religion at all - get along just fine with no need for your god.

Phat writes:

---but belief in God is a rational belief in a superior Being that wants to help us grow.


How can there be a rational belief in something that has no evidence to support it? What good is reason unless it is grounded in reality?

Phat writes:

About the OT God---if Open Theism is a reality, such a God would even then have allowed its warrior tribal people to do their thing in regards to survival of the culture they lived in. Granted such a Deity could well be viewed as cruel---much like today's arguments that if God exists, why such a messed up world?


So your Open Deity has no effect on the world. Then what's the point of His existence?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 11-30-2018 4:16 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 12-01-2018 3:51 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11642
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 28 of 137 (844551)
12-01-2018 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by ringo
12-01-2018 10:49 AM


Re: The Builder and the Landlord.
Well, worshiping God is a nonsensical concept to begin with.
OK. How about attempting to understand Him? Or do you think the Pentagon is filled with ghosts and zombies?
You claim that we're supposed to use our free will.
And the topic is about the existence of god and how such a Deity would utilize omnipotence, open theism, and omniscience.
People who don't follow your religion - or any religion at all - get along just fine with no need for your god.
And thus they have no business commenting on this topic if they can't accept the hypothetical.

How can there be a rational belief in something that has no evidence to support it?
So your argument has to be that belief is not rational. If we had evidence, we wouldn't even have belief...thus the argument centers on rationality. Is the hypothetical God with omniscience and foreknowledge rational? Would an open theistic God be any better? Why or why not?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by ringo, posted 12-01-2018 10:49 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by ringo, posted 12-02-2018 1:26 PM Phat has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30230
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 29 of 137 (844554)
12-01-2018 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
11-30-2018 12:09 PM


Re: Open Theism is a heresy
Why is there only one way to interpret scripture?

Uh, cuz normally an author is trying to convey something in particular and we call that the orthodox understanding, so other interpretations are false and we call those heresies.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 11-30-2018 12:09 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Tangle, posted 12-02-2018 3:41 AM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6397
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 30 of 137 (844568)
12-02-2018 3:41 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Faith
12-01-2018 6:03 PM


Re: Open Theism is a heresy
Faith writes:

Uh, cuz normally an author is trying to convey something in particular and we call that the orthodox understanding, so other interpretations are false and we call those heresies.

We are the holders of the truth, the one truth, the defenders of the faith. Heretics shall be burnt at the stake lest their infidel ideas pollute the minds of our children. Thus we have spoken.

And that, my dearly beloved, is how bad stuff happens.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Faith, posted 12-01-2018 6:03 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 12-02-2018 11:01 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 39 by Faith, posted 12-02-2018 6:09 PM Tangle has responded

  
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