Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 89 (8876 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 12-11-2018 4:54 AM
176 online now:
caffeine, PaulK, Phat (AdminPhat), Straggler, vimesey (5 members, 171 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Bill Holbert
Post Volume:
Total: 843,779 Year: 18,602/29,783 Month: 547/2,043 Week: 99/386 Day: 2/47 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
1
2Next
Author Topic:   Einstein and God
Percy
Member
Posts: 17968
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 1 of 19 (844699)
12-04-2018 8:25 AM


Einstein's 'God Letter' is back on the market: Einstein’s ‘God Letter,’ a Viral Missive From 1954. The letter became public in 2008 and sold for $404,000. It's now for sale again at Christie's and is expected to go in the $1 million to $1.5 million dollar range. This is the portion that gets all the attention, translated from the German:

quote:
The word God is for me nothing but the expression of and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of venerable but still rather primitive legends. No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can (for me) change anything about this.

Einstein's various expressions of his views on God were not consistent, and he, like other scientists, often used God as a metaphor for science, as when he said, "God does not play dice," as an objection to quantum theory. This letter will only add to the debate about what Einstein really thought about God.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by 1.61803, posted 12-04-2018 11:19 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 5 by caffeine, posted 12-04-2018 12:34 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 12-04-2018 1:09 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 19 (844701)
12-04-2018 8:45 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Einstein and God thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2804
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 3 of 19 (844706)
12-04-2018 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
12-04-2018 8:25 AM


This excerpt seems pretty cut and dry though.

It seems he was a atheist.

quote:
“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.”
Stuart Chase

I myself struggle with my faith all the time. But I have found some measure of comfort at times, when everything seems impossible and dire, that there may be a God and perhaps some measure of hope in the face of hopelessness. I fluctuate between every degree of believing-agnositc-atheist-nihlist all the time.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Percy, posted 12-04-2018 8:25 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Taq, posted 12-04-2018 12:00 PM 1.61803 has acknowledged this reply
 Message 14 by iano, posted 12-04-2018 3:07 PM 1.61803 has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7610
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 4 of 19 (844709)
12-04-2018 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by 1.61803
12-04-2018 11:19 AM


1.61803 writes:

This excerpt seems pretty cut and dry though.
It seems he was a atheist.

I would agree that Einstein was an atheist in the traditional sense. He seemed to be quite consistent in lacking a belief in a personal deity. He made allusions to pantheism at times, but that seemed to be more of a wishy-washy hippy spiritualism, or more charitably a sense of awe and wonder when looking at nature.

I really don't see why it makes any difference either way. There were many very intelligent people through the ages that were devout theists, atheists, and those who believed all sorts of crazy things. Evidently, intelligence is not a panacea for fallibility.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by 1.61803, posted 12-04-2018 11:19 AM 1.61803 has acknowledged this reply

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1551
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 2.4


(2)
Message 5 of 19 (844712)
12-04-2018 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
12-04-2018 8:25 AM


Einstein's various expressions of his views on God were not consistent

Einstein spent 76 years on this earth. I've expressed many inconsistent ideas in about half that time.

Arguments about what dead people 'really' thought never seem to take account of the fact that people's views change over time.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Percy, posted 12-04-2018 8:25 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11575
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 6 of 19 (844716)
12-04-2018 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
12-04-2018 8:25 AM


and then we have Hawking!
And paying a million dollars for a letter seems only to be an investment ina historical item of value appreciating.

Does Einstein's intelligence make his view on God more complete than yours or mine?

Hawking missed the mark, i think.

Stephen hawking writes:

“I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail,” he told the Guardian. “There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark.”


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Percy, posted 12-04-2018 8:25 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by 1.61803, posted 12-04-2018 1:29 PM Phat has responded

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2804
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 7 of 19 (844718)
12-04-2018 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
12-04-2018 1:09 PM


Re: and then we have Hawking!
I just read a article:

https://nypost.com/...ws-youre-dead-terrifying-study-reveals

https://www.webmd.com/...oes-your-brain-know-when-youre-dead

Apparently we know we are dead right after we die.
this is kind of unsettling. The thought of laying there on the gurney knowing you are dead. Then what? The big mystery.

I'll admit that it frightens me.
I like Gandalf's take on it.

quote:
“PIPPIN: I didn't think it would end this way.

GANDALF: End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path, one that we all must take. The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all turns to silver glass, and then you see it.

PIPPIN: What? Gandalf? See what?

GANDALF: White shores, and beyond, a far green country under a swift sunrise.

PIPPIN: Well, that isn't so bad.

GANDALF: No. No, it isn't.”

― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings


Edited by 1.61803, : fix link


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 12-04-2018 1:09 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Phat, posted 12-04-2018 1:32 PM 1.61803 has responded
 Message 10 by AZPaul3, posted 12-04-2018 2:15 PM 1.61803 has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11575
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 8 of 19 (844719)
12-04-2018 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by 1.61803
12-04-2018 1:29 PM


Re: and then we have Hawking!
I would have loved to be a fly on the wall listening to some of Tolkiens conversations with CS Lewis.

This source provides an entertaining and informative Blog on the matter:
85 Years Ago Today: J. R. R. Tolkien Convinces C. S. Lewis That Christ Is the True Myth

Edited by Phat, : added link


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by 1.61803, posted 12-04-2018 1:29 PM 1.61803 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by 1.61803, posted 12-04-2018 2:01 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2804
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 9 of 19 (844720)
12-04-2018 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Phat
12-04-2018 1:32 PM


Re: and then we have Hawking!
When I was a soldier I worked on a General Medical ward in El Paso
WBAMC. I seen death almost on a daily basis. I'll never forget a gentleman in my care was terminal and told me he was going to die "tonight at 9:00 pm." As my shift drew on I kept a eye on the clock and when it was about 20:45 hrs I went into his room. He was still alive and talking and he asked me,

" Is there anything you want to tell God cuz I'm gonna see him tonight."

I thought for a moment and said to myself, this is a unique opportunity to get a message directly to God. So I told they guy to just let God know I am doing my best as a person and have mercy on me.

The guy said he would relay my message.
I did my best to comfort the old guy and reassure him that he had a good life and was a good man and a good husband. All the sort of things you can think of to comfort someone dying. He did die that shift but not a 9:00 like he thought.
I envy that mans faith that he took such comfort in his beliefs.
I envy his certainty.
Stephan Hawking must of suffered terribly throughout his life with his illness and despite the consensus of doctors he lived a long and fruitful life. We needed a Stephan Hawking and thankfully we got one. And to quote some old Irish priest I know ( in his thick Irish Brogue). "Even if you don't believe in God, he still believes in you."


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Phat, posted 12-04-2018 1:32 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3518
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 10 of 19 (844721)
12-04-2018 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by 1.61803
12-04-2018 1:29 PM


Night Of The Thinking Dead
Apparently we know we are dead right after we die.

I don't know about that.

Heart stoppage is not death. A total lack of brain activity is death.

To be aware, in any sense, requires brain activity. Electrical impulses stimulating neurons.

After your heart stops and your lungs stop I can see where brain activity may continue for some time until the electrical activity of the neurons ceases. Until that happens you are not dead. Your conscience may know that you are ABOUT to die, but, no, you are not yet dead. That electrical activity may be at a level too low for our present EEG technology to detect, but, until all such activity ceases you are not dead and may, if you're real lucky (unlucky?) be resuscitated.

I dispute the pop-presses sensationalist reporting of the phenomenon. And if some of the quotes from the studies authors are correct then I dispute the authors' definitions as well as their ability to communicate to the press.

Still, the thought of lying there knowing you have taken your last breath for a number of minutes is not a pleasant one.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by 1.61803, posted 12-04-2018 1:29 PM 1.61803 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by 1.61803, posted 12-04-2018 2:36 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2804
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 11 of 19 (844726)
12-04-2018 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by AZPaul3
12-04-2018 2:15 PM


Re: Night Of The Thinking Dead
I agree with this. But still the idea of having a sudden cardiac arrest and be conscious long enough to know it sheesh.

Then there is always the idea of a sudden decapitation and whether or not there is enough time and neural activity to formulate a thought that .....damn I'm dead.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by AZPaul3, posted 12-04-2018 2:15 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by AZPaul3, posted 12-04-2018 2:55 PM 1.61803 has not yet responded
 Message 13 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-04-2018 3:02 PM 1.61803 has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3518
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 12 of 19 (844728)
12-04-2018 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by 1.61803
12-04-2018 2:36 PM


Re: Night Of The Thinking Dead
When Antoine-Laurent de Lavoisier was guillotined during the French Revolution it is said that as his last service to science (he was instrumental in the discovery of hydrogen, development of the metric system and an elementary table, etc.) he agreed to blink as fast as he could for as long as he could once the blade fell. Sources differ but the most common report is that he kept up his blinking for around 30 seconds. Plenty of time to think, "Well, this is not the best day I've ever had."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by 1.61803, posted 12-04-2018 2:36 PM 1.61803 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by caffeine, posted 12-05-2018 1:06 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1895
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 13 of 19 (844729)
12-04-2018 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by 1.61803
12-04-2018 2:36 PM


Re: Night Of The Thinking Dead
Then there is always the idea of a sudden decapitation and whether or not there is enough time and neural activity to formulate a thought that .....damn I'm dead.

I'm pretty sure my last thought would be...."Wait, STOP!"


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by 1.61803, posted 12-04-2018 2:36 PM 1.61803 has not yet responded

    
iano
Member
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 14 of 19 (844730)
12-04-2018 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by 1.61803
12-04-2018 11:19 AM


It occurs to me:

“For those who believe a proof is necessary, no proof is necessary".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by 1.61803, posted 12-04-2018 11:19 AM 1.61803 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by 1.61803, posted 12-04-2018 3:36 PM iano has not yet responded
 Message 16 by Percy, posted 12-04-2018 7:39 PM iano has not yet responded

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2804
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 15 of 19 (844733)
12-04-2018 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by iano
12-04-2018 3:07 PM



"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by iano, posted 12-04-2018 3:07 PM iano has not yet responded

  
1
2Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2018