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Author Topic:   Violence in the Bible and the Quran
Stile
Member
Posts: 3347
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 16 of 76 (846217)
12-31-2018 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by GDR
12-30-2018 10:37 PM


GDR writes:

Well I get your point, but it does seem to matter.

If your point is that it matters to you then this is obviously and rightly true. You are allowed to have your own opinions.

If your point is that it matters in a greater, overall sense then this is false as long as you cannot provide anything that indicates an issue with one of the objective facts:

  1. Both holy books contain descriptions of violence.
  2. Both religions have minor groups that use the descriptions of violence in the books as support for their violent actions.
  3. Both religions have majority groups that denounce the use of the books as support for any/all violent actions.

If however we have a holy book that goes in the direction of caring and then trending to vengeful it can be more of a problem, for those prone to accept the violent view.

Yes, a lot of things "can" be a problem. Or maybe they're not.
How do we know? We look at the objective facts.

Again, you're allowed to hold your own opinion.
My point is that your opinion doesn't hold any significant weight over the objective facts.
The only way to indicate that others should be agreeing with you is to appeal to their bias (perhaps they feel the same way you do?) or appeal to factual reality.

One will carry weight with some people (preaching to the flock.)
The other will carry weight with all reasonable people.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by GDR, posted 12-30-2018 10:37 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by GDR, posted 12-31-2018 3:41 PM Stile has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4734
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 17 of 76 (846226)
12-31-2018 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Stile
12-31-2018 11:21 AM


Stile writes:

If your point is that it matters in a greater, overall sense then this is false as long as you cannot provide anything that indicates an issue with one of the objective facts:

Both holy books contain descriptions of violence.
Both religions have minor groups that use the descriptions of violence in the books as support for their violent actions.
Both religions have majority groups that denounce the use of the books as support for any/all violent actions.


Yes those points are factual. But I don't worship a book. I worship God whose nature and purpose for my life I find in Jesus Christ. I am convinced that the resurrection is historical which subjectively confirms my faith.

When I gradually came to the Christian faith in my 30's I did not have some blinding revelation in some born again experience. I did find that as I read that Christianity kinda made sense of the world and my life. That understanding continued, and when I started understanding Jesus in His 1st century culture that belief became stronger again.

I also notice that there were subtle changes in my life, particularly in how I talked about people and how I related to them. This is pretty much meaningless to anyone else, but it was a big deal for me and has made a big difference in my various relationships.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Stile, posted 12-31-2018 11:21 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Stile, posted 01-07-2019 10:59 AM GDR has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3347
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 18 of 76 (846469)
01-07-2019 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by GDR
12-31-2018 3:41 PM


GDR writes:

I also notice that there were subtle changes in my life, particularly in how I talked about people and how I related to them. This is pretty much meaningless to anyone else, but it was a big deal for me and has made a big difference in my various relationships.

I think context is extremely important for such a statement.

For example,

1. Take this statement while thinking about a context similar to "personal wellness" (see: We must believe in what we're made for)

Your idea is then extremely powerful and meaningful.
In fact, I would highly defend your ability to hold such a belief and practice in whatever way you think is best (as long as you're not hurting anyone else...)

But, as you hint towards: "...this is pretty much meaningless to anyone else."

I wouldn't say meaningless, in this context, but more "very helpful" for anyone else trying to get a decent sense of their own "personal wellness."
That is, if they like the things you show in your life (being a good person, attempting to help others, willing to discuss opinions you may disagree with...)
...then they could attempt taking on some of the beliefs you hold. Maybe it will work for them too. Maybe not as there are other ways to obtain such wellness... but they won't know until they try and it's certainly a very good starting point.

2. Take this statement while thinking about a context similar to "determining the truth" of a matter.

Your idea is then noted for what it is... something that concerns your personal life and your personal wellness.
...not something that actually sways one way or the other in "determining the truth" of a matter such as if the Bible or the Quran "handles violence better."

That is... the Bible may very well handle violence better than the Quran for you in the sense that it sort of needs to in order to function within your beliefs and becomes inclusive in your personal wellness.

Just as the Quran may very well handle violence better than the Bible for someone who holds beliefs in accordance to the Quran in the sense that it sort of needs to in order to function within their beliefs and becomes inclusive in their personal wellness.

However, the context of "determining the truth" of the 3 main points I've listed a few times remains another matter.
Therefore, when "determining the truth" of the 3 main points, these discussions of the Bible or the Quran being "better" for someone's individual personal beliefs remains another matter (irrelevant) as there are clearly people on both sides holding the same idea for each separate book.

I think that for a great many discussions here, many people confuse the "search for the truth about reality" with the "search for the way to have personal beliefs enhance personal wellness."

Something that is fantastic for one is not necessarily fantastic for the other.
There is no "greater" one either. Just two different ideas. One will be "greater" for these people over here... the other will be "greater" for those people over there... and others still will either find them equally important or not care at all.

Discussions here would become a lot easier to follow if the separation between these two ideas could be identified and explored with more clarity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by GDR, posted 12-31-2018 3:41 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by GDR, posted 01-07-2019 3:24 PM Stile has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4734
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 19 of 76 (846491)
01-07-2019 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Stile
01-07-2019 10:59 AM


Hi Stile

It seems to me that either book can and has been used to promote violence. Atheistic principles have been used to promote violence. People who want to commit violence will hang their hat on anything to justify their actions.

Interestingly enough I recently read the book Infidel and was disturbed by the misogyny that seemed so ingrained in her Islamic culture.

I have spent quite a bit of time recently with a Syrian Islamic family of 9 that our church sponsored so that they could emigrate to Canada. First off, they are the only one on the street with a Canadian flag out front. The kids are respectful in a very positive way and they are really happy kids. They laugh really easily and they are always smiling.

The father who is 41 is very respectful of his mother, wife and sister who are all part of the group. He was a mechanic in Syria and my wife's car needed some work so he volunteered to do it. When he had finished I tried to pay him and he refused the money. He said that we had given his children a future.

The contrast between the book and this family is markedly different. The adult male dominated world of the Islamic world as portrayed in the book just does not square in any way with my experience with this family. Canada is so fortunate to have them.

The point again is that if we look for reasons to commit atrocities we will easily find them. I also think in the majority of cases it is more culture driven than anything else and of course religion is part of the culture. For example, I've mentioned in other threads that I see fundamentalist Christianity in the US as being actually a blend of Christianity, nationalism and politics.

So yes, there is violence attributed to the deities in both the Bible and the Quran, but there is also the message of love. Actually, ultimately I suggest that the OT quote that I use for my signature sums the whole thing up nicely.

Sorry, I know this is a very rambling post but hopefully mostly on topic.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Stile, posted 01-07-2019 10:59 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 01-08-2019 10:26 AM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 22 by Stile, posted 01-08-2019 3:51 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30481
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 20 of 76 (846524)
01-08-2019 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by GDR
01-07-2019 3:24 PM


It seems to me that either book can and has been used to promote violence.

Prove it. And for any such use of the Bible, prove that it is justified by the Bible itself, as opposed to Islam's direct commands to the reader. This "seems to me" of yours is utter dangerous nonsense. I'm glad your Syrian family don't seem to be serious followers of islam. But Islam does promote violence in its "holy" books and the Bible does not no matter how you try to twist historical accounts into such an idea.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by GDR, posted 01-07-2019 3:24 PM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Stile, posted 01-08-2019 4:47 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30481
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 21 of 76 (846525)
01-08-2019 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by GDR
12-21-2018 7:10 PM


Yes there are Muslims who don't follow the view of jihad as violence against unbelievers, but it is nevertheless in their books to be followed if any should decide they need to become more committed to the traditional understanding which IS violence against "infidels," which was clearly spelled out by Iran's Ayatollah Khomeini as the TRUE meaning of jihad. I'm sure there are many Muslims who don't subscribe to that part of their religion, but again, it's there to be embraced by anyone who wants to. And that is NOT the case with the Bible, any such use of the Bible is wrong, but such a use of Islam's books is not wrong. The Jews also know that their own Hebrew scriptures are HISTORY, and have nothing to do with their relationship with God today.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by GDR, posted 12-21-2018 7:10 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3347
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 22 of 76 (846540)
01-08-2019 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by GDR
01-07-2019 3:24 PM


GDR writes:

I know this is a very rambling post but hopefully mostly on topic.

Don't worry about it. I have a tendency to ramble myself.

It seems to me that either book can and has been used to promote violence. Atheistic principles have been used to promote violence. People who want to commit violence will hang their hat on anything to justify their actions.

Absolutely.

In the general sense, I agree that violence is a human-issue, not a religious (regardless or which religion) or non-religious issue.

This thread was started because the specific idea that Islam was "definitively more hateful and violent" than Christianity was being tossed around the board.
I did not intend to imply that atheism held a golden key to peace or anything like that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by GDR, posted 01-07-2019 3:24 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3347
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 23 of 76 (846543)
01-08-2019 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Faith
01-08-2019 10:26 AM


Faith writes:

GDR writes:

It seems to me that either book can and has been used to promote violence.

Prove it.

The results speak for themselves and are still the same:

  1. Both holy books contain descriptions of violence.
  2. Both religions have minor groups that use the descriptions of violence in the books as support for their violent actions.
  3. Both religions have majority groups that denounce the use of the books as support for any/all violent actions.

But Islam does promote violence in its "holy" books and the Bible does not no matter how you try to twist historical accounts into such an idea.

However, since the above 3 points still hold true... this only goes to show that Christians (the people, not the book) are more violent.

That is, from the 3 points above, we know that violence-linked-to-the-Christian-religion is about equal to violence-linked-to-the-religion-of-Islam.

If the book of Islam directs more violence... but the end result is about-the-same violence from so-called "Christians" and so-called "Muslims" then this logically tells us that Muslims are better at snuffing out violence. That is... their book tells them to commit more violence, but they don't.

If Muslims and Christians were equally adept at snuffing out violence... and the Quran was "inherently more violent" than the Bible... then we should see an obvious, objective increase in violence from Muslims over Christians. However (specific day of the month/year/millennium not withstanding...) this "objective increase" doesn't exist. Unless you're able to show how the 3 points above are not true?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 01-08-2019 10:26 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 01-08-2019 5:40 PM Stile has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30481
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 24 of 76 (846551)
01-08-2019 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Stile
01-08-2019 4:47 PM


The results speak for themselves and are still the same:

Both holy books contain descriptions of violence.
Both religions have minor groups that use the descriptions of violence in the books as support for their violent actions.
Both religions have majority groups that denounce the use of the books as support for any/all violent actions.

Nobody who can read would use a description of a historical violent event as justification for committing violence now, and you cannot name even a single case even of that. Name ONE "minor group" thatq uses the Bible as you claim, and again, Islam directly commands the reader to kill people, it is not a case of "minor groups" misusing mere descriptive passages. And it is most certainly not a majority who condemn violence in the name of Islam at all because that violence is IN THEIR HOLY BOOKS AS PRESCRIPTIONS TO BE CARRIED OUT IN THE PRESENT. You are making up a bunch of crap. You know nothing at all about thse things. Do you remember the CROWDS in the Middle East CELEBRATING THE ATTACKS ON 9/11? Wake up, you are a dangerous ignoramuc.

And again, Islam, in the Hadiths I believe, not the Koran, SPECIFICALLY COMMANDS THE READER to kill people, and the BIBLE DOES NO SUCH THING. Your "points" are total fabrications.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Stile, posted 01-08-2019 4:47 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by AZPaul3, posted 01-08-2019 5:56 PM Faith has responded
 Message 29 by Stile, posted 01-09-2019 10:27 AM Faith has responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3644
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 25 of 76 (846553)
01-08-2019 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Faith
01-08-2019 5:40 PM


SPECIFICALLY COMMANDS THE READER to kill people

So help me out here. The Ḥadīth is a big work. Point me in a direction here.

Even behind a link is fine by me. I trust you ... and more.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 01-08-2019 5:40 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Faith, posted 01-08-2019 6:17 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30481
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 26 of 76 (846554)
01-08-2019 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by AZPaul3
01-08-2019 5:56 PM


My eyes are getting too bad to do much of this, but here's a long quote from the Koran, not what I was looking for but maybe I can come back leter:
https://marshillapologetics.ca/islamviolence/

The Islamic teaching of 'naskh' or 'abrogation' means that later revelations abrogate or supersede earlier revelations when they are in tension. Qur'an 2:106, 13:39, and 16:101 are relevant passages on this Islamic teaching.

We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent? (Qur'an 2:106, Sahih International)

Allah eliminates what He wills or confirms, and with Him is the Mother of the Book. (Qur'an 13:39, Sahih International)

And when We substitute a verse in place of a verse - and Allah is most knowing of what He sends down - they say, "You, [O Muhammad], are but an inventor [of lies]." But most of them do not know. (Qur'an 16:101, Sahih International)

Going back to the context of Qur'an 2:106, we see something interesting in ayah 109. It talks about how the 'People of the Scripture' (Jews and Christians) which were trying to dissuade Muslims from believing in Islam. Muslims were told to 'pardon and overlook' the actions of these Jews and Christians 'until Allah delivers His command.' When Allah gives that new command, Muslims would no longer need to pardon and overlook these actions.

Many of the People of the Scripture wish they could turn you back to disbelief after you have believed, out of envy from themselves [even] after the truth has become clear to them. So pardon and overlook until Allah delivers His command. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent. (Qur'an 2:109, Sahih International)

In fact, this occurred once Qur'an 9:29 was revealed. At that point, Muslims were explicitly commanded to fight those (1) who do not believe in Allah or the last day, (2) who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful, and (3) who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture. Woah, that abrogates the pardoning and overlooking of Qur'an 2:109. Unless they paid jizyah, they were to be killed

Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled. (Qur'an 9:29, Sahih International)

In Qur'an 9:5, we see the similar fate of the polytheists. Unless they repented, established prayer, and paid zakah, they were to be killed wherever they where found.

And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. (Qur'an 9:5, Sahih International)

I bring up surah 9, known as Surah At-Tawbat or Surah Al-Bara'ah, because it is clear from Hadith (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, Book 60, No. 129) that it is the last surah chronologically. Therefore, surah 9 contains the final marching orders of Allah and Muhammad.

The last Sura that was revealed was Bara'a, and the last Verse that was revealed was: "They ask you for a legal verdict, Say: Allah's directs (thus) about those who leave no descendants or ascendants as heirs." (4.176) (Sahih al-Bukhari: Vol. 6, Book 60, No. 129)

Peace is not what is being promoted here. Offensive violence is what is being promoted here. As per the Islamic teaching of abrogation, a verse can only be superseded by something better. It is clear therefore that Allah and Muhammad view violence as something better than peace.

Though the Islamic conception of Allah would rather punish than pardon and overlook, the Judeo-Christian God is one who pardons all iniquities and covers them. Infinite justice could only be satisfied when the infinite God took it upon Himself on the Cross of Calvary. This God with such as self-sacrificial love does not want any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

“And their sins and their lawless deeds
I will remember no more.” (Hebrews 10:17, NASB)

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9, NASB)

The judgements which the Judeo-Christian God carried out against nations in the Old Testament were warranted, were the result of much patience, and were specific in scope. The wars were against nations that had committed heinous iniquities such as passing children through the fire in sacrifice to gods such as Molech (Leviticus 18:21, Leviticus 18:24-30, Deuteronomy 18:9-11). We see God's patience with how He waited 4 generations or 400 years before carrying out judgement against the Amorites (Genesis 15:13,16). He eventually gave a specific command to the Israelites concerning such nations with further guidance along the way (Deuteronomy 20:17).

Ultimately, we have to understand these judgements, and the judgments in the Mosaic law given specifically for Old Testament Israelites, were commanded by the one who is the objective point of reference for morality. In situations where an individual disagrees with God's judgements, it is important to remember it is futile to think that one's subjective perception of morality supersedes an objective point of reference for morality. In the case of Islam, unlike the Judeo-Christian worldview, the judgements proceed from what is clearly a false religion.

What is in found in the Judeo-Christian texts are in stark contrast to the offensive wars waged by Muhammad against polytheists and Jews and Christians. Various Islamic texts, including the open-ended last marching order found in surah 9, are a legitimate basis for the deadly consequences of Islamism in our world.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by AZPaul3, posted 01-08-2019 5:56 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by AZPaul3, posted 01-08-2019 8:13 PM Faith has responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3644
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 27 of 76 (846557)
01-08-2019 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Faith
01-08-2019 6:17 PM


maybe I can come back leter

You have graced me with a petal. This will do fine. Thank you.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Faith, posted 01-08-2019 6:17 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 01-09-2019 9:50 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30481
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 28 of 76 (846573)
01-09-2019 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by AZPaul3
01-08-2019 8:13 PM


Violence in Bible versus Koran
You're welcome although I'm too obtuse to understand your reference to a "petal." Sounds nice though, so thanks again.

Anyway I was just rereading what I posted and think it makes the distinction between Christianity and Islam clear where so many on this forum keep asserting false equivalences. God in the Bible is shown making very specific assessments of a nation's transgressions, but giving them centuries to repent of them, showing long patience with the transgressors even in the case of the horrific idolatries that sacrifice children, before He brings judgment against them, while the Koran just says in no particular context, but to Muslims in general, that they should kill everyone who doesn't accept Allah. It specifically names Jews, Christians and polytheists, but they aren't going to ignore you atheists I'm sure, and they also kill other Muslims of a different sect.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by AZPaul3, posted 01-08-2019 8:13 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by AZPaul3, posted 01-09-2019 11:45 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3347
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 29 of 76 (846578)
01-09-2019 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Faith
01-08-2019 5:40 PM


Faith writes:

Name ONE "minor group" that uses the Bible as you claim...

Here's a whole list of Christian Terrorism.
It's not exactly difficult to find.

Here are a few simple examples pulled from that page:

quote:
  • Manmasi National Christian Army (MNCA), a Christian extremist group operating in North East India. The militants were seen holding a gun in one hand and a Bible in another hand.

  • The Lord's Resistance Army, a guerrilla army in Uganda, accused of using child soldiers and of committing numerous crimes against humanity; is led by Joseph Kony, who proclaims himself the spokesperson of God and a spirit medium, primarily of the "Holy Spirit." LRA fighters wear rosary beads and recite passages from the Bible before battle.

  • The November 2015 Colorado Springs Planned Parenthood shooting, in which three were killed and nine injured. The gunman, Robert Lewis Dear... had praised the Army of God, saying that attacks on abortion clinics are "God's work."


I find it rather unbelievable that you've never heard of any such things.

Faith writes:

You are making up a bunch of crap. You know nothing at all about these things. Do you remember the CROWDS in the Middle East CELEBRATING THE ATTACKS ON 9/11? Wake up, you are a dangerous ignoramus.

Of course I remember such things.
I've never claimed that no violence was done in the name of Islam.
I'm claiming that violence is done in the name of Islam as well as in the name of Christianity.

You're the one who seems unable to show that no violence is ever done in the name of Christianity.

Your "points" are total fabrications.

Which one, and how?

Again, here they are. If you think one is wrong, please identify which one and show how it is incorrect:

The results seem to be the same for both religions:

  1. Both holy books contain descriptions of violence.
  2. Both religions have minor groups that use the descriptions of violence in the books as support for their violent actions.
  3. Both religions have majority groups that denounce the use of the books as support for any/all violent actions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 01-08-2019 5:40 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Faith, posted 01-09-2019 10:50 AM Stile has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30481
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 30 of 76 (846583)
01-09-2019 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Stile
01-09-2019 10:27 AM


I don't care one bit about crazy groups in Uganda or India, they sound like they're on the level of David Koresh or some other cult. They are not Christian except in their own crazy minds. And in both those countries the predominant violence is carried out AGAINST true Christians, by Islam or by the Hindus. The Hindus have stepped up their attacks on the Christians in recent years and and an Indian pastor sends out emails showing Christians lying bloodied or dead in the streets, and one shows a young woman whose clothes have been torn off her running for her life from men who would rape and kill her. So some crazies apparently started a counter violence movement. It's understandable I suppose but not Christian in spirit. We can retaliate in the service of a nation, and should, but in the service of Christian faith we are to die to ourselves and not retaliate.

It is also not Christian to kill abortionists. and I have no idea who the Army of God are.

Your list is just the usual crazy false equivalence. Any violence done in the name of Christianity is a violation of Christian doctrine, but in the name of Islam it is a fulfillment of Islamic doctrine. I guess such distinctions are meaningless to you but they are crucially important if you want to understand what is really going on. And again, DESCRIPTIONS of violent events are your own made up crap. In the Bible they occurred thousands of years in the past through an ancient nation acting as God's arm of judgment, and they have nothing to do with us today. And in the case of Islam it has nothing to do with descriptions, it's just direct commands to murder Jews and Christians and polytheists, they don't even have any historical descriptions, it's all instructions aimed at the reader. Go read the quote I posted above. There are NO such "minor groups" in Christianity that are actually Christian, and the "minor groups" in jIslam are part and parcel of the religion, true followers of their doctrine. I already answered this but you persist in your nonsensical claims. And again the "majority groups" in Islam who denounce the jihadists are violating the treachings of their own books. Even if they sincerely prefer the spiritualizing interpretation of jihad, that is their own madeup interpretation and violates the traditional meaning of the word which means violence against unbelievers inj the service of bringing everyone in the world under subjugation to Allah. You are persisting in making false equivalences after they've been sufficiently answered.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Stile, posted 01-09-2019 10:27 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Stile, posted 01-09-2019 12:06 PM Faith has responded

    
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