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Author Topic:   Violence in the Bible and the Quran
AZPaul3
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Posts: 3644
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 31 of 76 (846596)
01-09-2019 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Faith
01-09-2019 9:50 AM


Re: Violence in Bible versus Koran
You're welcome although I'm too obtuse to understand your reference to a "petal." Sounds nice though, so thanks again.

Ahh, you noticed. (blush)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 01-09-2019 9:50 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3347
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


(3)
Message 32 of 76 (846599)
01-09-2019 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Faith
01-09-2019 10:50 AM


Faith writes:

I don't care one bit about crazy groups in Uganda or India, they sound like they're on the level of David Koresh or some other cult.

And yet, they still exist.

They are not Christian except in their own crazy minds. ... Any violence done in the name of Christianity is a violation of Christian doctrine...

Thank-you for proving my point correct:

  1. Both religions have majority groups that denounce the use of the books as support for any/all violent actions.

Here are some Muslims denouncing violence done in the name of their religion:

70 Muslim Clerics Issue Fatwa Against Violence And Terrorism

quote:
Seventy scholars from three Muslim nations issued an edict on Friday that says violent extremism and terrorism violate the principles of Islam.

Both sides seem to denounce the violence.

There are NO such "minor groups" in Christianity that are actually Christian, and the "minor groups" in Islam are part and parcel of the religion, true followers of their doctrine.

And yet, the evidence shows that you are wrong:

Christian leaders denounce the violence done in the name of Christianity claiming they are not "true Christians."
Muslim leaders denounce the violence done in the name of Islam claiming they are not "true Muslims."

I'm going to take the Muslim leaders' words about who is and who is not a "true Muslim" just as much as I'll take the Christian leaders' words about who is and who is not a "true Christian."

That's why my list doesn't mention anyone being a Christian or a Muslim.
It only mentions that people exist who use the books/religions as support for their violent actions.
Such a fact cannot be denied, for both religions.

You are persisting in making false equivalences after they've been sufficiently answered.

If you think you can sufficiently show one of the points as false, please do so at your earliest convenience.

Here they are again, in their yet-to-be-refuted glory:

  1. Both holy books contain descriptions of violence.
  2. Both religions have minor groups that use the descriptions of violence in the books as support for their violent actions.
  3. Both religions have majority groups that denounce the use of the books as support for any/all violent actions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Faith, posted 01-09-2019 10:50 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 01-09-2019 4:52 PM Stile has responded
 Message 34 by GDR, posted 01-09-2019 8:13 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30482
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 33 of 76 (846627)
01-09-2019 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Stile
01-09-2019 12:06 PM


And yet, they still exist.

Yeah, Mormons exist too but that doesn't make them Christians.

With a standard that low no wonder there's no reasoning with you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Stile, posted 01-09-2019 12:06 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Stile, posted 01-10-2019 9:34 AM Faith has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4735
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 34 of 76 (846654)
01-09-2019 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Stile
01-09-2019 12:06 PM


I thought I'd poke around a little on the subject and came up with this. Can Muslims be Friends With Christians and Jews It is an Islamice site.

It's not that long and an interesting read. The following is the last paragraph from the article.

quote:
O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other (not that you may despise (each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things). (Quran 49:13)

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Stile, posted 01-09-2019 12:06 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3347
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 35 of 76 (846678)
01-10-2019 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Faith
01-09-2019 4:52 PM


Faith writes:

With a standard that low no wonder there's no reasoning with you.

Here, again, is my standard:

  1. Both holy books contain descriptions of violence.
  2. Both religions have minor groups that use the descriptions of violence in the books as support for their violent actions.
  3. Both religions have majority groups that denounce the use of the books as support for any/all violent actions.

I understand you find such facts to be unreasonable.
However, you seem to be unable to show how such facts are actually unreasonable (or untrue.)

I am not claiming to have the ability to change your mind on what is or is not reasonable.
I only claim that these are, indeed, facts.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 01-09-2019 4:52 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Faith, posted 01-10-2019 9:49 AM Stile has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30482
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 36 of 76 (846680)
01-10-2019 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Stile
01-10-2019 9:34 AM


Those are not facts, they are your own made-up fiction. The Koran does not contain a "description" of violence. It advocates it, it does not even have much in the way of historical reports of anything at all. Muslims are directly commanded to kill people, they are not relying on historical reports.

Also you have shown no "minor group" that commits violence based on the historical reports of the Bible. It takes an illiterate to have such an idea in the first place but I know of no "groups" of that nature.

Islam has no legitimate majority group that opposes violent jihad because that is the traditional understanding of the term and those who oppose it are modern revisionists with no legitimate standing.

Bible believers soundly reject any interpretation of the Old Testament violence as commanded of us today.

Your list is completely false. Those are not facts, there is not one fact in the list, and I have shown how time after time after time. You are completely ignorant of what you are talking about.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Stile, posted 01-10-2019 9:34 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Stile, posted 01-10-2019 10:23 AM Faith has responded
 Message 39 by ooh-child, posted 01-10-2019 11:36 AM Faith has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3347
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 37 of 76 (846681)
01-10-2019 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Faith
01-10-2019 9:49 AM


Faith writes:

The Koran does not contain a "description" of violence. It advocates it, it does not even have much in the way of historical reports of anything at all. Muslims are directly commanded to kill people, they are not relying on historical reports.

Even if you're right... an advocation of violence is still a description of violence.

Also you have shown no "minor group" that commits violence based on the historical reports of the Bible.

I've never claimed such a thing.
My claim is that people exist who use the description of violence in the Bible to support their violent actions.

Again, here's a link to many groups of existing people doing just that: Christian Terrorism

Islam has no legitimate majority group that opposes violent jihad because that is the traditional understanding of the term and those who oppose it are modern revisionists with no legitimate standing.

Your claim goes against reality.

Again, here's the reality: 70 Muslim Clerics Issue Fatwa Against Violence And Terrorism

It doesn't matter that you don't believe it, or that you interpret the Quran differently than the Muslim leaders do.
All that matters is that these leaders exist, and they interpret the Quran in such a way as to denounce the use of the Quran to commit violence.
Just as Christian leaders exist, and they interpret the Bible in such a way as to denounce the use of the Bible to commit violence.

Your list is completely false.

I do not see how as you've helped prove every point to be true.

You are completely ignorant of what you are talking about.

I think the problem is that you're unable to separate your personal connection to the Bible that provides you with personal growth from the objective fact that others use the Bible in another way (regardless of them doing so "rightly" or "wrongly.")

Similarily, you have a personal requirement (due to your personal attachment to the Bible) that the Quran is wrong and evil. This drives you to demand that the Quran must be "worse" than the Bible.

Of course, the conflict with reality doesn't seem to stop you.

Your personal attachment to your belief in the Bible overrides your ability to acknowledge and deal with objective facts about the world.
This may strengthen your personal belief - that in and of itself I actually see as a good thing.
The bad part is how much of a struggle it causes you as you are forced to face reality on a day-to-day basis - this is obviously extremely frustrating for you.

You cannot make reality disappear - yet you need reality to disappear in order to pacify the drive behind your personal beliefs.

This is a personal issue you have created for yourself.
And it is only yourself who can resolve it for you.

The obvious fact that your personal attachment to your belief is so strong that you do not yet want to resolve this struggle condemns you to building up more and more frustrations as your day-to-day conflicts with reality continue.

Perhaps one day the frustrations will become so large that you no longer wish to ignore them.
Or, maybe not.

I just hope your frustrations do not become so large that you begin to hurt other people.
As long as you refrain from hurting others, however, I have no issue with you having to deal with frustrations... no matter how massive you've created them for yourself.

Of course, since your frustrations are of your own making, and they only affect you, and you are making a personal choice to continue with them... I have absolutely no problem with repeatedly showing actual, objective, factual reality to you until you either accept it or grow too tired of the frustrations and move along.

If you can actually show something based in reality to refute any of the main points for this thread, please do so at your earliest convenience:

  1. Both holy books contain descriptions of violence.
  2. Both religions have minor groups that use the descriptions of violence in the books as support for their violent actions.
  3. Both religions have majority groups that denounce the use of the books as support for any/all violent actions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Faith, posted 01-10-2019 9:49 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Faith, posted 01-10-2019 10:40 AM Stile has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30482
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 38 of 76 (846687)
01-10-2019 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Stile
01-10-2019 10:23 AM


What a bunch of blithering blather you just repeat over and over again. Wake up.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Stile, posted 01-10-2019 10:23 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Stile, posted 01-10-2019 11:54 AM Faith has responded

    
ooh-child
Member
Posts: 206
Joined: 04-10-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 39 of 76 (846699)
01-10-2019 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Faith
01-10-2019 9:49 AM


Biblical slavery
Also you have shown no "minor group" that commits violence based on the historical reports of the Bible.

Didn't southern-state Christians, prior to the Civil War, use 'historical reports of the bible' to justify slavery? And, isn't slavery inherently violent?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Faith, posted 01-10-2019 9:49 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 01-10-2019 11:54 AM ooh-child has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3347
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 40 of 76 (846700)
01-10-2019 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Faith
01-10-2019 10:40 AM


Faith writes:

What a bunch of blithering blather you just repeat over and over again. Wake up.

That's some nice alliteration.

If you'd ever like to return to the facts, here they are again - still bathing in their yet-to-be-refuted glory:


  1. Both holy books contain descriptions of violence.
  2. Both religions have minor groups that use the descriptions of violence in the books as support for their violent actions.
  3. Both religions have majority groups that denounce the use of the books as support for any/all violent actions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Faith, posted 01-10-2019 10:40 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Faith, posted 01-10-2019 11:55 AM Stile has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30482
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 41 of 76 (846701)
01-10-2019 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by ooh-child
01-10-2019 11:36 AM


Re: Biblical slavery
You may be right about that, I'm not sure, but the Bible context for slavery is either through military conquest or economic necessity, not stealing people to turn into slaves as was done here, and the Mosaic law prescribed humane standards. And this is a different subject anyway.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by ooh-child, posted 01-10-2019 11:36 AM ooh-child has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by ooh-child, posted 01-10-2019 12:43 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30482
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 42 of 76 (846702)
01-10-2019 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Stile
01-10-2019 11:54 AM


Gosh you're stubborn. Those are your own fantasy, they are not facts.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Stile, posted 01-10-2019 11:54 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Stile, posted 01-10-2019 12:03 PM Faith has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3347
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 43 of 76 (846704)
01-10-2019 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Faith
01-10-2019 11:55 AM


Faith writes:

Gosh you're stubborn.

I actually rather enjoy changing my mind.
It means I'm learning.

However, I will not change my mind just because it would make your personally-induced frustrations easier for you to handle.

I will gladly change my mind if you can use reality to show how any of these items are false:


  1. Both holy books contain descriptions of violence.
  2. Both religions have minor groups that use the descriptions of violence in the books as support for their violent actions.
  3. Both religions have majority groups that denounce the use of the books as support for any/all violent actions.

Those are your own fantasy, they are not facts.

Your Dad can beat up my Dad is a fantasy, and not a fact.
These above points, however, are facts. You can tell the difference because of the support that can be provided from reality.
Half of it you accept.
The other half you reject, but the links and examples I gave still exist to show that this half is still factual even if you decide to unreasonably reject them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Faith, posted 01-10-2019 11:55 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Faith, posted 01-10-2019 9:24 PM Stile has responded

    
ooh-child
Member
Posts: 206
Joined: 04-10-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 44 of 76 (846706)
01-10-2019 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Faith
01-10-2019 11:54 AM


Re: Biblical slavery
You may be right about that, I'm not sure, but the Bible context for slavery is either through military conquest or economic necessity, not stealing people to turn into slaves as was done here, and the Mosaic law prescribed humane standards.

I don't care about 'laws' prescribing humane standards, I thought we all agreed slavery is violent.

And the whole reason for slavery in the South was economic necessity. We studied that in school, remember?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 01-10-2019 11:54 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Coragyps, posted 01-10-2019 1:34 PM ooh-child has acknowledged this reply
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 01-10-2019 9:13 PM ooh-child has responded

  
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5368
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 45 of 76 (846707)
01-10-2019 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by ooh-child
01-10-2019 12:43 PM


Re: Biblical slavery
My several-great grandpa Junkin was a preacher and Doctor of Divinity who authored a chatechism “Particularly for the Education of Colored Persons,” encouraging them to follow Biblical teaching in being calmly obedient to their masters. Yeah. Slavery supporter.

"The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails." H L Mencken

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by ooh-child, posted 01-10-2019 12:43 PM ooh-child has acknowledged this reply

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