Ignorance and Arrogance

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Originally posted by Cobra_snake:
I perfectly understand how SHOULD work, however, that has nothing to do with what I am suggesting.

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You adequately describe how perfect science SHOULD operate. But I seriously doubt if perfect science is ever performed.

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Science itself is not a flawed device. People correctly using science is not a flawed device, either. The only bias that comes into credible scientific work is the topic of research itself. That's a subjective matter that the scientist decides. But, that does not corrupt the findings, so long as they're scientific in nature. Results only become truly scientific if they can be consistently produced. It doesn't matter what the beliefs of the researchers are. I (an agnostic) could do an experiment on gravity and produce the same results as a Christian experimenter. Personal beliefs are irrelevant in science.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by redstang281:
[b][b] You accept evolution, something that can not be proven.[/QUOTE]I accept evolution because of the overwhelming amount and diversity of evidence which points to it being true.Nothing in science is ever "proved". Evolution, however, can be demonstrated and observed and inferred from nature.You know, if you would read the FAQs at talkorigins, you might understand a bit better.

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Your fallback is that you believe it's the best scientific explanation. However, that's still accepting something on "face value."

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I do not accept the ToE at "face value". I have done a fair bit of reading on the subject over the years, and have also very successfully completed undergraduate-level Biology and Physiology courses.This comment of yours is an example of a Creationist thinking that their counterpart in the scientific world operates with similar thought processes. This is a common occurrance.Creationists often spout empty assertions such as "evolution doesn't happen", or, "you take evolution at face value", without providing a single bit of evidentiary support or intelligent argument. [QUOTE]This topic really serves as nothing more than a chance for evolutionist to pat themselves on the back. If I wanted to I could start one about arrogance in evolutionist, but I don't see the point. It's really just a position of judgement.
[/b][/QUOTE]Arrogance alone was not the topic. Arrogance often combined with ignorance, and how often these qualities wre combined in the Creationist, was the topic of the thread.I do not think that, however arrogant the average evolutionist in these debates may be, they are often ignorant of either science nor Creationism.OTOH, Creationists are often SO sure they are right without knowing much (if anything at all) about that which they declare is impossible or not true.

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Originally posted by Cobra_snake:
I perfectly understand how SHOULD work, however, that has nothing to do with what I am suggesting.

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You adequately describe how perfect science SHOULD operate. But I seriously doubt if perfect science is ever performed.

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Everything has a way it should work but that never happens, solely because of the nature of man. things like pride, respect, etc always get in the way of any actual reasoning that could happen. In my faith the only person ever to act without sin was jesus and no man could ever match up to him. Anyone that doesnt have faith in jesus will undoubedly go to hell. This seems rather bold and it is, god speaks of humans and how theyre always luke warm, meaning they cant make a decision whether or not they believe in him. If you dont believe him say it so that he knows that he has to save your sould and so that others can help you. All of you know that in general science is not needed for man to simply survive and religion isnt needed for your body to survive but without jesus you have nothing when you die. all of your work and it doesnt matter how good of a samaritan you are without jesus your nothing, this is what the bibles message is in my opinion. im sure that evolution is perfectly plausable but is it necessary for us to learn? all we really need to know is that we were created by god in the image of god. we should be focusing on helping people in need, be it food, health, or if their faith is wavering. I realize that man wants to know the reasons and motives behind everything because of paranoia, jealousy, distrust, etc but there is certainly no way we will ever be able to fully comprehend god, jesus, evolution or anything for that matter. How can we expect to understand or believe in another being when we have trouble understanding, caring for, and believing in others. I myself have no problem believing in god, jesus, and the holy spirit but ill probably never be able to understand us because so many of seem so plastic, so unreal, like mindless droids bent on doing only what they've been told by their bosses. You should know theres a greater point to life than that, whats the point of living if i get no where? if you gain nothing from your life then why even bother other than to multiply and i wouldnt want to have a child that had no reason to live other than being a slave. Anyway im sure youll ripart everything i said and call me naive simply because im just starting my existence in this realm. i hope my thoughts were clear and i hope everyone had a great groundhog's day.

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[This message has been edited by KingPenguin, 02-04-2002]

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Originally posted by KingPenguin:

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If you dont believe him say it so your soul can be saved and that he knows what to do to save you.

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Just to pick up on that point, if I say I don't believe in God, I'll be OK?Mark------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

wow ignorance and arrogance about creationists and you do something like that. wow i think ill edit my post now. thanks for pointing that out.------------------
"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi

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Originally posted by KingPenguin:
1)....but without jesus you have nothing when you die. all of your work and it doesnt matter how good of a samaritan you are without jesus your nothing, this is what the bibles message is.....

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2)....in my opinion we should be focusing on helping people in need, be it food, health, or if their faith is wavering.

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1)Q/Is a God that would send a good man to hell for not believing in him worth believing in?2)food yes, health yes, faith no leave them the hell alone to make their own choice. Ultimately a persons relationship with God is a personal thing. Me, I don`t believe he exists, if he does I expect to be judged by my actions rather than the get out of jail free card of belief, if God is that egotistical that belief in him is the criteria for going to heaven then he is not a being worthy of my respect let alone any theological devotion....

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Originally posted by joz:
1)Q/Is a God that would send a good man to hell for not believing in him worth believing in?

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2)food yes, health yes, faith no leave them the hell alone to make their own choice. Ultimately a persons relationship with God is a personal thing. Me, I don`t believe he exists, if he does I expect to be judged by my actions rather than the get out of jail free card of belief, if God is that egotistical that belief in him is the criteria for going to heaven then he is not a being worthy of my respect let alone any theological devotion....

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1) yes, you recieve salvation through faith.
2) food and health can be forced more than christianity, since the choice to believe is up to individual. Most, if not all, of your actions are sins and christ was crucified on the cross so that we could be saved even though were not perfect. Jesus was the only man without sin.

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Originally posted by KingPenguin:

1) yes, you recieve salvation through faith.
2) food and health can be forced more than christianity, since the choice to believe is up to individual. Most, if not all, of your actions are sins and christ was crucified on the cross so that we could be saved even though were not perfect. Jesus was the only man without sin.

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1)Isn`t actualy an answer to my question...2)A lovely summary of your creed but the point of the statement which you ignored is that if the sole criteria for getting into heaven is belief in God rather than being of fine moral charachter I`m off to hell, and happily so, to mix with a better sort of person....Some of the biggest murdering ****wits in history have believed in God.......

[B] 1)Isn`t actualy an answer to my question...
--- what your soul doesnt mean anything to you?2)A lovely summary of your creed but the point of the statement which you ignored is that if the sole criteria for getting into heaven is belief in God rather than being of fine moral charachter I`m off to hell, and happily so, to mix with a better sort of person....
---you have to beg forgiveness and promise not to sin again. The less sins you have when you die the better. Everything is forgivable, our bodies arent worth anything without our souls/minds/personalities. Also you cannot image the pain you go through in hell, its like your worst nightmare times a million.Some of the biggest murdering ****wits in history have believed in God.......
---they have claimed to believe in him, i doubt they have any faith in him. almost everyone believes in god, few have actual faith in him.------------------
"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi

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Originally posted by KingPenguin:
1)what your soul doesnt mean anything to you?

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2)you have to beg forgiveness and promise not to sin again. The less sins you have when you die the better. Everything is forgivable, our bodies arent worth anything without our souls/minds/personalities. Also you cannot image the pain you go through in hell, its like your worst nightmare times a million.

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3)they have claimed to believe in him, i doubt they have any faith in him. almost everyone believes in god, few have actual faith in him.

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1)Still hasnt answered the question.However your response is only valid if I accept some form of mind body duality, I don`t, as far as i can tell there is no ghost in the machine.... Consequently my response is simply how can i care about something I do not have?2)Once again Not a reply to my original statement.Again only valid if mind body duality actualy exists....Also if God is the sort of small minded despot who would send a good man to hell for not believing in him I don`t want anything to do with him, lake of fire here I come....3)Wow why don`t you move the goal posts, earlier you said you just had to believe now you have to have faith in him. I was talking about people like the spanish inquisition (or if thats too catholic for you Cramner) lovely folks who tortured people and burnt others at the stake precisely because they beliveved and had faith in God.....Then there is the KKK....The crusaders....And various serial killers....Lovely bunch to have to spend eternity with....

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Originally posted by hoostino:
The brain is hardwired to concern itself with preservation. People love to think that they are special, different, and privy to something that others are not. They love to believe that they are right.

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I find the above a strange post. Firstly, the brain is not hardwired to concern itself with preservation; if it were, you would never hear of people losing their lives trying to save others. And even if it were, what does this hardwiring have to do with people loving to think that they are special, different, and right?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KingPenguin:
--- what your soul doesnt mean anything to you?
[/B][/QUOTE]Nope, not a thing. I see no evidence that it exists. [QUOTE]Originally posted by KingPenguin:
---The less sins you have when you die the better.
[/B][/QUOTE]Can you back that up scripturally? [QUOTE]Originally posted by KingPenguin:
---almost everyone believes in god, few have actual faith in him.
[/B][/QUOTE]EVERYONE who believes in god has faith in him - unless you have your own private definition of the word 'faith'.

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Originally posted by KingPenguin:
wow ignorance and arrogance about creationists and you do something like that. wow i think ill edit my post now. thanks for pointing that out.

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What was the first sentence about? You made a statement (If you dont believe him say it so your soul can be saved and that he knows what to do to save you) that didn't make sense in the context of all your other posts, that have nothing to do with arrogance & ignorance. How was I to know you made a mistake?All you had to say was "oop, it's a typo".It's no biggie.Mark------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

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Originally posted by toff:
EVERYONE who believes in god has faith in him - unless you have your own private definition of the word 'faith'.

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1)your soul is what you are, its what you like, hate, love, etc. its what makes you human.2)its not in the bible but its what your taught probably just to keep you in line.3)my definition of faith is having complete trust in him, love, belief, and letting him guide you through life. belief is just saying that hes there and that you think he is.

im sorry, ill try not to be so moody but its hard not to. god is very touchy subject for me and most that have faith in him.------------------
"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi