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Author | Topic: Ignorance and Arrogance | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
joz Inactive Member |
quote: It just occured to me that their belief is not just the result of all the information they have recieved, rather it is held due to early indoctrination contrary to the bulk of information recieved.... They are making a choice to believe rather than honestly look at the information they possess before adopting a position.... Probably why they insist that belief is a matter of choice....
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no2creation Inactive Member |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by joz:
[b] It just occured to me that their belief is not just the result of all the information they have recieved, rather it is held due to early indoctrination contrary to the bulk of information recieved.... [/QUOTE] [/b]Isn't this brainwashing? quote: This would be a 'closed mind' situation. Not open to new information because it may contradict old information. I can't figure it out. Why anyone would tell me that I have to choose to believe in something that just doesn't register in my mind. Scare tactics are used 99% of the time, yet the bible says NOT to fear God. Many members on EVCFORUM.NET, write posts indicating that we should choose to accept and believe in God or unspeekable acts will be carried out on our souls for all eternity... How many people believe in God because they fear going to hell if they don't?
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KingPenguin Member (Idle past 7910 days) Posts: 286 From: Freeland, Mi USA Joined: |
If there is a God, then I hope he would accept me into heaven based on my actions here on earth not by what I believe in.
--Well why would he grant you eternal life if you wont grant him your frivalous physical life? that puts things in perspective for me. I used to believe in God when I was younger, the only problem is that I didn't feel very strong about it. When I grew older, I wasn't sure if I was a believer.-- it was the opposite for me, i didnt have any faith whatsoever because my parents lied to me every so often. then i started goin go to youth groups and church because i was willing to let Jesus be part of my life and i want him to and he is. It was the study of the Christian Faith that turned me away from God. Statements that people are going to hell because they don't believe in God, then I thought "Gee, do I really believe in God? If not then am I going to hell? Also, if I don't really believe, then I'm committing a sin by lieing to everyone else and portraying myself as a believer in God." I find more satisfaction in being honest with everyone and truthful to myself, then pretending I believe in something that doesn't exist.--- Theyre are some things that are very blunt but thats how it works and you dont have to live up to whatever backwards standards society has at the time. You were meant to make your creator happy but you could never do that because you sin. So Jesus saw that we all could be very good people and he loved us so much that he bared all of our sins for us. You'll never know for sure if Jesus exists but thats what having faith is about, you are able to commit yourself to him without being pushed along by earthly means. ------------------"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi [This message has been edited by KingPenguin, 03-13-2002]
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nator Member (Idle past 2196 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by KingPenguin:
[B]If there is a God, then I hope he would accept me into heaven based on my actions here on earth not by what I believe in. --Well why would he grant you eternal life if you wont grant him your frivalous physical life? that puts things in perspective for me.[/QUOTE] My "physical life", as you put it, is anything but frivolous! My actions, every day, have consequences for the Earth, the people I come into contact with and some that I don't, future people yet to be born, etc. My actions are of immense importance to me, as an Agnostic, because this life is probably it, so I want to do right by everything and everyone. I do right because it is right and honorable.
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KingPenguin Member (Idle past 7910 days) Posts: 286 From: Freeland, Mi USA Joined: |
quote: whats seventy years compared to all eternity? nothing.Your actions are very important and affect how well you can influence people and get them to understand your side of the story. If your a rude selfish crybaby drunken hooligan no ones going to listen to you or hold any credit to your word. ------------------"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi
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leekim Inactive Member |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by schrafinator:
[B]Over the years, since I have been engaging in these debates and discussions, I have noticed a pattern among Creationists. I have noticed that the Creationists who are the most uninformed about Biology, Geology, Physics, and Science in general, are often the most arrogant and condescending in their manner and statements. So why is it that these Creationists often accuse scientists of being "know-it-alls"? Is it projection? The study of science has taught me to be quite sure I can back up what I say before I say it. If anything, I realize my limitations and also realize that there is a GREAT deal that I don't know. It has also taught me that I must accept good evidence if it contradicts what I previously thought was true about nature. It has taught me to know what constitutes "good evidence". Lastly, it has taught me that humans are prone to many thought errors and biases which are hard-wired into us, and that the controls of the scientific method are what makes all of science possible. The practice of critical thinking and logic has taught me to think things through, and to not accept anything on face value, but to require evidence. ---This topic is clearly painting the "Creationists" with the proverbial broad brush. Although there are a few "kooky" / arrogant Creationists that post on this Board (I won't name names to protect the innocent), there certainly isn't a lack of non-creationists that possess the very same qualities. "The practice of critical thinking and logic has taught me to think things through" and has lead me to my belief in a Supreme Creator of life (universally and generically speaking) and mankind, God.
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nator Member (Idle past 2196 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by leekim:
[b] quote: How do critical thinking skills lead to religious faith? To me, critical thinking and logic are not tools for spiritual enlightenment. Emotions are the basis for faith. Skepticism and critical thinking are all about determining what is natural, not supernatural.
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no2creation Inactive Member |
[QUOTE][b]Originally posted by KingPenguin:
N2C:If there is a God, then I hope he would accept me into heaven based on my actions here on earth not by what I believe in. KP--Well why would he grant you eternal life if you wont grant him your frivalous physical life? that puts things in perspective for me. [/QUOTE] [/b]Well if you would open your eyes here, maybe I could get you to understand what it is I'm trying to say! 1. I can not choose to believe. Belief IS NOT A CHOICE!!!2. Why would God judge me for something I can not choose? 'Faith' does NOT carry the same meaning as 'Belief'. So do not preach about how I must have faith...bla...bla...bla...bla Because you must believe something exists before you can have faith in that belief!!! If God judges people based on what they believe, then that would be the same as God judgeing someone based on the color of their skin (you can't choose either of them). If you were to grow up in East India, with education in East Indian culture, you wouldn't be a Christian. Otherwise, how is it that many cultures stay pure and un-tainted for so many generations if they could randomly choose their own beliefs. Especially with no prior knowledge of Jesus Christ.
[QUOTE][b]N2C: I used to believe in God when I was younger, the only problem is that I didn't feel very strong about it. When I grew older, I wasn't sure if I was a believer. KP-- it was the opposite for me, i didnt have any faith whatsoever because my parents lied to me every so often. then i started goin go to youth groups and church because i was willing to let Jesus be part of my life and i want him to and he is. [/QUOTE] [/b]You have to understand that belief must come before faith!
[QUOTE][b]N2C: It was the study of the Christian Faith that turned me away from God. Statements that people are going to hell because they don't believe in God, then I thought "Gee, do I really believe in God? If not then am I going to hell? Also, if I don't really believe, then I'm committing a sin by lieing to everyone else and portraying myself as a believer in God." I find more satisfaction in being honest with everyone and truthful to myself, then pretending I believe in something that doesn't exist. KP--- Theyre are some things that are very blunt but thats how it works and you dont have to live up to whatever backwards standards society has at the time. You were meant to make your creator happy but you could never do that because you sin. So Jesus saw that we all could be very good people and he loved us so much that he bared all of our sins for us. You'll never know for sure if Jesus exists but thats what having faith is about, you are able to commit yourself to him without being pushed along by earthly means. [/QUOTE] [/b]Care to share with us a few of those 'backwards standards'. How about the equality of man and woman. Are they created equals? Or is that just a backwards standard in society? My parents are my creators, and yes, I do make them happy! You display ignorance and even arrogance by telling me that I have to choose to believe in God. Yet, you haven't show anyone how believing is by choice.
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nator Member (Idle past 2196 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I am not talking about influencing people today, or getting people to "believe me". I am talking about the fact that how I live my life has effects on other people's lives, and therefore all the people they come into contact with, and so on. If I am kind to people, if I smile at them, if I am helpful, I have a good effect on them, and therefore others. If I am grumpy, negative, hurtful, I have a bad effect on them, and therefore others. Most of us do not live in isolation. When I speak with someone who is always negative about everything, it makes me feel negative, too. That's what I mean by my actions having consequences. I also mean that my choice to not buy fast food, or to buy organic food, or to shop at small businesses instead of corporate chains all have positive effects upon my community, and reach far into the future. I am very close to my niece. What I say to her and teach her will have an effect upon her. She will probably live longer than I, and will probably influence a child in her future. And so on, and so on. All of my actions, for good or ill, reach far into the future.
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
I just discovered this Glenn Morton production at:
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/feb02.html Here it is, in its entirety:
quote: Moose Added by edit: Talk.Origins "Post of the Month" main index page:
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/default.htm ------------------BS degree, geology, '83 Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U Old Earth evolution - Yes Godly creation - Maybe [This message has been edited by minnemooseus, 03-21-2002]
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
It's only 9 hours since I posted the previous message, and already I think it needs bumping to the top! (I just read one of TrueCreation's replys at another topic)
Moose ------------------BS degree, geology, '83 Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U Old Earth evolution - Yes Godly creation - Maybe
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
Pretty slow around here - Time to bump Glenn Morton's commentary (message 58) to the top (again).
Moose ------------------BS degree, geology, '83 Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U Old Earth evolution - Yes Godly creation - Maybe
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
Found another Talk.Origins "Post of the Month" that I think deserves special attention:
Letter to a PastorPost of the Month: May 2000 by Kenneth Kirksey at:
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/may00.html Moose ------------------BS degree, geology, '83 Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U Old Earth evolution - Yes Godly creation - Maybe |
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KingPenguin Member (Idle past 7910 days) Posts: 286 From: Freeland, Mi USA Joined: |
The difference is, I know that my actions have consequences and effects.
-- i know that my actions have consequences and effects as well. If i kill someone that doesnt believe in Jesus im sending them to hell. If i hurt someone emotionally or physically im degrading their opinion of christianity and of me. Im not evil enough to do that to someone. You don't know that there is even an "eternity". You have faith that there is, and you feel that there is, but you don't actually know, for sure. --i know that there is eternity for me if i have faith in Jesus. Thats what ive been taught. Of course i dont know for a 100% sure but nothing is %100. I am not talking about influencing people today, or getting people to "believe me". I am talking about the fact that how I live my life has effects on other people's lives, and therefore all the people they come into contact with, and so on. ---i know your not but im saying that it how i influence a person greatly affects wheter or not theyll believe in Jesus. You are also correct. If I am kind to people, if I smile at them, if I am helpful, I have a good effect on them, and therefore others. If I am grumpy, negative, hurtful, I have a bad effect on them, and therefore others. Most of us do not live in isolation. When I speak with someone who is always negative about everything, it makes me feel negative, too. That's what I mean by my actions having consequences. I also mean that my choice to not buy fast food, or to buy organic food, or to shop at small businesses instead of corporate chains all have positive effects upon my community, and reach far into the future. I am very close to my niece. What I say to her and teach her will have an effect upon her. She will probably live longer than I, and will probably influence a child in her future. And so on, and so on. All of my actions, for good or ill, reach far into the future. --very correct and thats what im saying. From that i can also tell that your a very good person, which is a very good thing. ------------------"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi
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KingPenguin Member (Idle past 7910 days) Posts: 286 From: Freeland, Mi USA Joined: |
your probably very lucky im responding to this since the author is obviously being juvenile, maybe you picked it up but whatever. I dont know where his opinions on christians and anyone that doesnt have a 100% faith in science but from what i know christians to be his statement is horribly wrong. Just look at this message boards all of the creationists/YECS/OECS/Christians/Athesit are very willing to read and respond to whatever the topic is. Whenever i go to the library or book store i read as much evolution books as i do creationism books. We most likely wont agree with it until you can provide rock solid proof of it, especially if it contradicts our standing beliefs but you are the same way as well. I think that there is maybe a handful of the evolutionists that can give a response without screaming and whining that creationism cannot be simply because it has no evidence other than the bible, which they are quick to call totally false and unusable. I thank those evolutionists and creationist that are open to arguments and try not to get too agrivated. The lack of evidence for christians is meant as a test of their faith, God loves you and he wants to know that you love him.
------------------"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi
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