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Author Topic:   World's Happiest People? You Gotta Be Kidding!
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 123 (60167)
10-08-2003 6:48 PM


Anyhow, methinks Nigerians not happiness world champs and at least some who've read the facts objectively have gained some knowledge by this thread. That's my summarization and time to move on for me.

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Chiroptera, posted 10-08-2003 8:08 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 123 (60182)
10-08-2003 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Buzsaw
10-08-2003 6:48 PM


What?
quote:
Anyhow, methinks Nigerians not happiness world champs and at least some who've read the facts objectively have gained some knowledge by this thread. That's my summarization and time to move on for me.
What is that? You made some assertions, failed to back up most of them, and the rest were refuted, and now you are just going to move on? You still haven't demostrated with "objective facts" that the Nigerians are not the happiest people on earth. Worse is the assertion that you made in your first post:
quote:
This "happiness report" sponsored by the world community is just another example of how in the name of religion, tyranny, holocaust and destruction is being tolerated by global powers that be as well as apologists of Islam all the way down to some folks right here on EvC who fail to see the escalating threat this ideology poses to the planet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Buzsaw, posted 10-08-2003 6:48 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Buzsaw, posted 10-08-2003 10:35 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 123 (60197)
10-08-2003 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Chiroptera
10-08-2003 8:08 PM


Re: What?
I've cited the unrest in the nation and Islamic intentions to erradicate Christianity in the North, the effort to enforce sharia upon some of the population in sectors, the homeless, the begging in the streets, the destruction by bussed in Islamic terrorists etc. The scary thing to me is that none of you people are bothered by all this and you all think this looser third world oppressive regime rule over the happiness/contented world champs of all nations of the world with narry a one who care. That's really scary if you people are representative of America's emerging generation. Your generation is just fine with ushering into America and the world Muhammed's dream of an Islamic planet.
If the facts I've pesented mean nothing to you, why should I waste any more time on this thread?
[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 10-08-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Chiroptera, posted 10-08-2003 8:08 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Chiroptera, posted 10-08-2003 11:01 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 95 by NosyNed, posted 10-08-2003 11:13 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 123 (60200)
10-08-2003 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Buzsaw
10-08-2003 10:35 PM


Re: What?
Actually, you haven't presented any facts about Nigeria. You cited only one article about about a state government official calling for the murder of a reporter about a year ago. You haven't presented any evidence that the majority of Nigerians are constantly undergoing the sort of deprivations and threats you are talking about, or that the majority of Nigerians feel that they are so unsecure that they cannot be happy, not, and this is important, you have failed to demonstrate that the Nigerians lack the sort of emotional mechanisms to cope with the situation they find themselves in. I don't know how to measure how "happy" a people are, but happiness has a lot to do with expectations and a general feeling of security. I have no reason to doubt that the Nigerians, as a whole, are a happy people.
The only other thing you did was to cite a few verses of the Quran out of context to support your assertion that Islam poses a threat to the world. In post 74 of this thread, shrafinator listed verses that could lead one to the same conclusions about Christianity. On one or two other threads (I forget which ones) someone posted verses taken from the Quran that would lead one to believe that Islam is a tolerant, peaceful religion. Simply taking a few verses and pointing to the words and deeds of a few extremists is meaningless outside of the context of what the majority of Muslims believe and what they want. You have not presented any "facts" that would lead me to believe that the majority of Muslims, or even a significant minority, believe that the whole world should be forcibly converted through warfare.
As far as "my generation" goes, how old do you think I am?
And why should you waste any more time on this thread? You made some very definite assertions about Nigeria and about Islam that can be considered defamatory. You should either back them up or you should admit that you, perhaps, said more than you meant in your excitement.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Buzsaw, posted 10-08-2003 10:35 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Buzsaw, posted 10-09-2003 12:14 AM Chiroptera has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 95 of 123 (60204)
10-08-2003 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Buzsaw
10-08-2003 10:35 PM


Re: What?
Buz you and the others are arguing past each other.
What we have is a measure made that is supposed to indicate overall happiness of a population. The results of this indicate that Nigerians are, by this definition, HAPPY.
This is in spite of all that you have said. All you have said may well be true. But all we have to measure some sort of average happiness is this survey.
There is no good being incredulous. I find it surprising too. The only thing that makes sense is to more closely examine the nature of the measurements made and the methodology. Since we don't have access to that I think we don't have anything to discuss.
The other approach might be to find other surveys of "happiness" that have been made. What is it that correlates with happiness. We all suspect that material wealth is not well correlated with happiness. Is living in a peaceful country? I imagine it is, as you do. However, maybe it doesn't correlate well. If that were true in other surveys then the results of this survey aren't so surprising.
We might also, as you seem to suggest, examine who the people were who made this survey, do we think they have a specific axe to grind? Why do we? (other than simple paranoia) Motive? What good does it do to give results like this? How are they being used? What other countries are given? What do we think of the over all results.
I have certainly read a bunch of anecdotal stuff were individuals marvel at how happy impoverished, downtrodden people are. This, of course, proves nothing, but indicates that it is not impossible to be happy under conditions you and I might find appalling.
Without all this I don't think there is much use of further discussion on either side.
All we have is that someone told us a study says Nigerians are very happy. We have no idea about the reliability of that. However, we do feel that it is not impossible even if we individual are very surprised.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Buzsaw, posted 10-08-2003 10:35 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Buzsaw, posted 10-08-2003 11:52 PM NosyNed has not replied
 Message 97 by Chiroptera, posted 10-08-2003 11:56 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 123 (60206)
10-08-2003 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by NosyNed
10-08-2003 11:13 PM


Re: What?
quote:
All we have is that someone told us a study says Nigerians are very happy. We have no idea about the reliability of that. However, we do feel that it is not impossible even if we individual are very surprised.
Thanks Ned. Good overall post. In response to your above statement, it appeared that this was a scientific study published in what appeared to be a noted science publication and also appeared to be global in sponsorship. I did the thread because I felt that people should be aware that some of these scientific studies may not be all that scientific or factual. Another reason for posting it is that this is just another African nation where genocide is either emerging or being perpetrated because the UN and world body of nations seem to be looking the other way as this genocide goes on. If the number of people in Africa killed in the last decade had been any place in Europe it would have gotten a whole lot more attention.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by NosyNed, posted 10-08-2003 11:13 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Chiroptera, posted 10-09-2003 12:00 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 123 (60207)
10-08-2003 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by NosyNed
10-08-2003 11:13 PM


Re: What?
quote:
The other approach might be to find other surveys of "happiness" that have been made. What is it that correlates with happiness. We all suspect that material wealth is not well correlated with happiness. Is living in a peaceful country? I imagine it is, as you do. However, maybe it doesn't correlate well. If that were true in other surveys then the results of this survey aren't so surprising.
You make some good points. But there are some interesting aspects that this thread can help to bring up. One is a point I alluded to in my previous post, namely the importance of coping mechanisms. I spent some years in Tanzania among people who were very poor, and where the mortality rate, especially the infant mortality rate, was quite high by Western standards. You, I, and many others would find it somewhat unpleasant to live in these conditions, but the locals had to live with it, and they dealt with it - they would prefer things to be different, of course, but they accepted how they live as a part of life. At the same time, I do know that many Nigerians, and other people, are definitely unhappy in the US. Our way of life, especially the lack of very close communities, and the more materialistic aspects of our culture is unpleasant to many people.
quote:
I have certainly read a bunch of anecdotal stuff were individuals marvel at how happy impoverished, downtrodden people are.
To come back to my experience in Tanzania, people were very poor, as I said. But most of the people managed to get by. I, personally, saw very little of the most horrifying abject kind of povery - I see more of it here, where I live in the US (I live in a poor part of town). As I alluded to (although it may not have been clear), I doubt that the majority of Nigerians are directly affected by the dire poverty and war that buzsaw was talking about. Plus, I didn't read the study myself, but I also suspect that the researchers may have avoided, for reasons of personal safety as well as logistics, the very worst parts of the country.
quote:
We might also, as you seem to suggest, examine who the people were who made this survey, do we think they have a specific axe to grind? Why do we? (other than simple paranoia) Motive? What good does it do to give results like this?
A good question, but since I don't do surveys of this sort, I'm probably not the best person to comment on this. But I think that we all want people to be happy. But how to make people happy? What is it that makes people happy? Now when we get a surprising result like this, there can be two explanations. One is that our "measurement of happiness" is off. But this is good to know, since if we want to study happiness we need to be able to measure it more accurately. The second explanation is that the factors that enter into a person being happy are different than what we think it is. This, too, is good to know. Without reading the survey myself, I suspect that both of these ideas are in play here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by NosyNed, posted 10-08-2003 11:13 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 123 (60208)
10-09-2003 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Buzsaw
10-08-2003 11:52 PM


Re: What?
quote:
I did the thread because I felt that people should be aware that some of these scientific studies may not be all that scientific or factual.
You did not discuss any of the science, however. But I repeat myself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Buzsaw, posted 10-08-2003 11:52 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Buzsaw, posted 10-09-2003 12:18 AM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 123 (60209)
10-09-2003 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Chiroptera
10-08-2003 11:01 PM


Re: What?
Chiroptera,
1. The context out of which I cited from the Quran nor the life and practices of the prophet himself in no way change anything stated in the quotes.
2. None of my statements were falsely deflamatory. Where were your responses to the contrary when they were posted or thereafter to refute them?
3. I was neither overly excited nor did I say anything I should now want to retract since what I posted was factual.
4. Shraf resorted to meanspirited insultive responses and I simply refuse to respond to such. I don't need that and neither would you.
My apologies for assuming your age to be young. It appears there's only a few here over 40. I guess there's one or two who would be considered to be in my generation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Chiroptera, posted 10-08-2003 11:01 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by nator, posted 10-09-2003 10:07 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 105 by Chiroptera, posted 10-09-2003 2:15 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 100 of 123 (60210)
10-09-2003 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Chiroptera
10-09-2003 12:00 AM


Re: What?
quote:
You did not discuss any of the science, however. But I repeat myself.
Are you aware that there's social science? The study was the science, wasn't it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Chiroptera, posted 10-09-2003 12:00 AM Chiroptera has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by NosyNed, posted 10-09-2003 3:02 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 102 by NosyNed, posted 10-09-2003 3:04 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 101 of 123 (60225)
10-09-2003 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Buzsaw
10-09-2003 12:18 AM


Re: What?
I'm sure we are all aware of the social sciences. However, I don't think anyone has actually discussed the science behind this survey (or whatever).
It may well be very accurate. It may be junk science.
I haven't seen a scarp posted to pick either side. You seem to think, Buz, that I agree with you. I don't. However, while I think your reasons for what you do believe are very suspect (even dangerous) I also think that you might be right saying that the survey could be wrong too. I neither disagree nor agree. We don't know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Buzsaw, posted 10-09-2003 12:18 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Chiroptera, posted 10-09-2003 2:17 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 102 of 123 (60226)
10-09-2003 3:04 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Buzsaw
10-09-2003 12:18 AM


The Survey
I haven't read this yet. But finally it seems it might be appropriate to actually read something about the real survey.
Buz you should have posted a link to it in the first place.
http://wvs.isr.umich.edu/
Ok I've started to browse it. Is it possible that the whole thing is based on bad initial input?
This chart:
Subjective well-being by level of economic development.
at http://wvs.isr.umich.edu/fig.shtml
Has Nigeria with a good percentage of "happy" (about 75%) with very low GNP. However a bunch of countries (and all the ones you might expect) are over 80 and 90%.
On this chart Iceland seems to be on top. With the Netherlands, Switzerland and Denmark right up there.
It will take more reading. Perhaps Buz could quote more from the New Scientist article to see where it got it's information.
[This message has been edited by NosyNed, 10-09-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Buzsaw, posted 10-09-2003 12:18 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Buzsaw, posted 10-10-2003 1:13 AM NosyNed has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 103 of 123 (60250)
10-09-2003 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Buzsaw
10-09-2003 12:14 AM


Re: What?
quote:
4. Shraf resorted to meanspirited insultive responses and I simply refuse to respond to such.
So, you consider my doing nothing other than quoting the Bible to give examples of God's directives to persecute or kill unbelievers as 'meanspirited' and 'insulting'?
That's my only post in this thread; a long list of bible quotes.
Perhaps you are confusing Zhimbo and me.
[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-09-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Buzsaw, posted 10-09-2003 12:14 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Zhimbo, posted 10-09-2003 12:28 PM nator has not replied
 Message 109 by Buzsaw, posted 10-10-2003 12:51 AM nator has replied

  
Zhimbo
Member (Idle past 6012 days)
Posts: 571
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 07-28-2001


Message 104 of 123 (60271)
10-09-2003 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by nator
10-09-2003 10:07 AM


Re: What?
quote:
"Perhaps you are confusing Zhimbo and me."
Hey, I apologized in a passive-agressive manner!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by nator, posted 10-09-2003 10:07 AM nator has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 105 of 123 (60288)
10-09-2003 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Buzsaw
10-09-2003 12:14 AM


Re: What?
quote:
1. The context out of which I cited from the Quran nor the life and practices of the prophet himself in no way change anything stated in the quotes.
4. Shraf resorted to meanspirited insultive responses and I simply refuse to respond to such. I don't need that and neither would you.
Shrafinator did exactly the same thing you did - posted a collection of quotes from a religious text that makes the religion in question seem violent and dangerous. The point is that one cannot simply collect a few quotations and make judgements based on them; one must look at what the majority of believers actually believe, how they actually act, and recognize when the faith in question is actually a quite heterogenous mix of different peoples and beliefs.
quote:
2. None of my statements were falsely deflamatory. Where were your responses to the contrary when they were posted or thereafter to refute them?
Since some implications of your statements is that Islam is by nature a violent religion bent on world domination and so Muslims are dangerous people, which are not true, I would consider such statements defamatory.
quote:
My apologies for assuming your age to be young.
No apologies necessary. I am just becoming aware of how young the majority of people on these types of message boards are.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Buzsaw, posted 10-09-2003 12:14 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by zephyr, posted 10-09-2003 4:56 PM Chiroptera has not replied
 Message 108 by Buzsaw, posted 10-10-2003 12:39 AM Chiroptera has not replied

  
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