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Author Topic:   Scientific vs Creationist Frauds and Hoaxes
Modulous
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Posts: 7383
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(5)
Message 166 of 220 (666163)
06-22-2012 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Portillo
06-22-2012 7:17 PM


Ota Benga was a pygmy, who in 1904, was kidnapped from his wife and two children in the Congo.

I believe his wife and two children were slaughtered by the Force Publique.

He was exhibited as an apeman at the St Louis World Fair and the Bronx Zoo.

I'm not sure he was exhibited as an apeman at the World Fair, he interacted with visitors and charged them 5 cents to see his ceremonially pointed teeth.

As for the Bronx Zoo, he was exhibited there as

quote:
The African Pigmy, "Ota Benga."

Not as an apeman.

Because of being caged, fed and treated like an animal, Benga committed suicide.

That's certainly an interesting account. Do you have a source for it? I see no record of him being kept in a cage or treated like an animal (treated very poorly, maybe, like a slave perhaps).

The account I see is that he gained the beginnings of an education, went to work at a tobacco factory and at the outbreak of WWI grew depressed at his declining probability of ever returning home and then he killed himself.

It was later discovered that Benga was actually a human being.

They may have thought of him as 'very low in the human scale', but human they thought him. That's why slavers took him. That's why Verner freed him. That's why they weren't surprised when he spoke English.

I have a feeling you've been told this story by someone who wanted you to believe something they couldn't convince you of honestly, and you believed it without double checking the facts because of some bias or another of yours. Take a read of this and if you still think this constitutes a 'scientific hoax' rather than 'an example of the scientific racism that took hold in the mid to late 19th Century' then you can provide your sources that show an actual hoax being perpetrated.


This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
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Message 167 of 220 (672532)
09-09-2012 8:19 AM


for Jzyehoshua to explain further
from Message 2 of thread Climategate Email Quotes on Dendrochronology, Ice Cores, and Coral Dating in the Proposed New Topics forum

quote:
From the Climategate emails, it appears evident the multiproxy dating approach actually involves methods which all have serious methodology issues. Dendrochronology, coral, and ice core dating are all admitted by those at the heart of the Climategate scandal to be weak, unreliable methods. They were deliberately reconstructed through bias to try and achieve results supportive of liberal evolution and global warming agendas as clearly seen in the emails. It is very obvious from reading the emails how shoddy the research behind such methods, as performed by the same clique responsible for Climategate, really has been.

I realize certain people on this forum believe very strongly in these methods, so I thought I'd see what thoughts are about the obvious flaws as witnessed from the Climategate emails.


... They were deliberately reconstructed through bias to try and achieve results supportive of liberal evolution and global warming agendas as clearly seen in the emails. ...

This would qualify for discussion on this thread, so please use this thread for further discussion of this issue.

Enjoy


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Genologist
Junior Member (Idle past 1557 days)
Posts: 8
From: Kadoma, Mashonaland West, Zimbabwe
Joined: 09-15-2012


Message 168 of 220 (673182)
09-15-2012 3:30 PM


I understand that wherever there are divergent views on a subject, there are bound to be those on the extremities of both sides who with excessive zeal, "amplify" or add-on to what they believe to be the truth, most often to gain popularity or prove a point to their detractors.
However, your question presents something of a conundrum. If the evos are still wondering why there has been comparatively little response to this topic from creationists, the explanation is quite simple. Creationists view the entire theory of evolution as a hoax, so how can we be bothered (yawn) with singling out hoaxes within a hoax? That is what is so holistically reassuring about faith which is in harmony with clear evidence. Creationists feel little need to point out the so-called "hoaxes" within evolutionary theory when we can more easily point out the flaws in your dearest claims, or better still simply point to the truth which speaks for itself.
Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Percy, posted 09-15-2012 4:37 PM Genologist has not yet responded
 Message 170 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-16-2012 8:26 AM Genologist has responded

  
Percy
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Message 169 of 220 (673184)
09-15-2012 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Genologist
09-15-2012 3:30 PM


Hi Genologist,

Glad to hear your job here will be so easy - maybe you're even done already.

Anyway, welcome aboard!

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Genologist, posted 09-15-2012 3:30 PM Genologist has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
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(1)
Message 170 of 220 (673198)
09-16-2012 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Genologist
09-15-2012 3:30 PM


Creationists view the entire theory of evolution as a hoax ...

Then you have uncovered the biggest conspiracy of all time.

But what would be the motivation for such a hoax?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Genologist, posted 09-15-2012 3:30 PM Genologist has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by NoNukes, posted 09-16-2012 10:33 AM Dr Adequate has responded
 Message 173 by Genologist, posted 09-16-2012 4:58 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
NoNukes
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Message 171 of 220 (673203)
09-16-2012 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Dr Adequate
09-16-2012 8:26 AM


What's the motivation?
Here is one man's take on the motivation.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/...ublic_schools_are_evil.htm

quote:
Dethrone God? Man without God? Can a person dethrone God? Absolutely not! The very essence of Communist philosophy is the absence of God. That's why public school teach the lie of Evolution!

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

“Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own.” George Bernard Shaw


This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-16-2012 8:26 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-16-2012 10:39 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
Dr Adequate
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Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 172 of 220 (673206)
09-16-2012 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by NoNukes
09-16-2012 10:33 AM


Re: What's the motivation?
Well, yes, of course, we've all read that sort of stuff.

But I wanted Genologist to put forward his own opinions.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by NoNukes, posted 09-16-2012 10:33 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
Genologist
Junior Member (Idle past 1557 days)
Posts: 8
From: Kadoma, Mashonaland West, Zimbabwe
Joined: 09-15-2012


Message 173 of 220 (673216)
09-16-2012 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Dr Adequate
09-16-2012 8:26 AM


But what would be the motivation for such a hoax?

I'm glad you asked this question, although it could go a little off-topic. The answer I'm afraid is not scientific, it can't be; it concerns the conscience, the soul. It is about accountability and how all man naturally dislikes being held accountable to any authority. Don't deceive yourself, if you are truly deep down honest eg. the reason you don't want to park in that disabled parking when you're late is either because you care what people would think about you if they found out, or because you are concerned about a possible penalty from the authorities- either way there could be a consequence. Given that we live in an imperfect world we well know that most of our wrong-doings will go completely unpunished in this life, (and everybody does wrong, especially the "hidden" to others wrong, not so an all-seeing Creator)... As soon as we are compelled to believe in the existence of a Creator, we are confronted with the reality of some form of relationship with such Creator. Indeed a Creator who made us with such emotions, ambitions etc is most likely to be interested in us and this means we are laid bare before a supreme authority. Ouch! we don't like that idea, so we appease and numb our consciences and repeatedly tell ourselves that we are the result of an "accident" ie evolution.- We are therefore not answerable to a higher authority than the structures of man, that puts us at ease, Whew! we can do what we like therefore as long as we judge that it won't cause us harm or make us feel bad with our "lateral" human relations.

Edited by Genologist, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-16-2012 8:26 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by subbie, posted 09-16-2012 5:11 PM Genologist has not yet responded
 Message 175 by Tangle, posted 09-16-2012 5:22 PM Genologist has responded
 Message 176 by jar, posted 09-16-2012 5:23 PM Genologist has not yet responded
 Message 177 by Percy, posted 09-16-2012 5:44 PM Genologist has not yet responded
 Message 181 by NoNukes, posted 09-16-2012 6:46 PM Genologist has not yet responded
 Message 182 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-16-2012 8:56 PM Genologist has not yet responded
 Message 183 by Coyote, posted 09-16-2012 9:42 PM Genologist has not yet responded

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 57 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


(6)
Message 174 of 220 (673217)
09-16-2012 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Genologist
09-16-2012 4:58 PM


Don't deceive yourself, if you are truly deep down honest eg. the reason you don't want to park in that disabled parking when you're late is either because you care what people would think about you if they found out, or because you are concerned about a possible penalty from the authorities- either way there could be a consequence.

This, of course, highlights the difference between a certain class of believer and people who are truly moral. I don't park in handicapped parking spaces because there are people who need them. I don't. It has nothing to do with not wanting to get caught or concerns about what other people would think of me. On the other hand, there are those, such as you apparently, who have no concern for others but behave only out of fear of what would happen to you if you don't.

Who would you consider to be the truly moral person; one who does good because of concern for the well being of others or one who does good only because of fear of repercussions?


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung


This message is a reply to:
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Tangle
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Posts: 4408
From: UK
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Member Rating: 2.9


(5)
Message 175 of 220 (673218)
09-16-2012 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Genologist
09-16-2012 4:58 PM


You know, most of the time this creationist bollox just washes over me, but just occasionally i get bloody angry with the pure, personal insult of the stuff.

Now watch my lips.

I don't park in a disabled bay because it's wrong. It's wrong because it may harm someone less advantaged than me - someone like my father who is severely disabled.

Try to get this into your distorted skull; some of us do the right things because they are the right things to do - and for no other damn ignorant, superstitious and pervese reason.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Genologist, posted 09-16-2012 4:58 PM Genologist has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
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Posts: 28433
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 176 of 220 (673220)
09-16-2012 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Genologist
09-16-2012 4:58 PM


Really off topic but needed a response.
Sorry but as a Christian I gotta say that the Creator you are trying to market is nothing more than a bling-bling pimp daddy unworthy of even acknowledgement much less worthy of respect or worship. Sorry but the God you are trying to market deserves nothing but contempt.

It is also totally irrelevant to the topic and totally false as well since almost all recognized major Christian sects have no problem with either the fact of evolution or with the Theory of Evolution as the only current explanation for the variety of life seen on Earth.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Genologist, posted 09-16-2012 4:58 PM Genologist has not yet responded

  
Percy
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Posts: 15491
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 177 of 220 (673221)
09-16-2012 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Genologist
09-16-2012 4:58 PM


That says a lot more about Christian imaginations than it does about any motive for perpetrating a massive multi-generational hoax requiring top-secret fossil manufacturing plants, elite covert fossil seeding teams, fake genetic analysis programs, secure educational facilities to ensure that all evolutionists keep their lying in agreement, etc., plus it doesn't account for the majority of scientists who happen to be religious, nor does it address the motivation of Christians who believe that accepting evolution puts the eternal salvation of their very souls at risk.

But as you noted, that's all a bit off-topic. Did you want to say anything about scientific versus creationist frauds and hoaxes?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Genologist, posted 09-16-2012 4:58 PM Genologist has not yet responded

    
Percy
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Posts: 15491
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 178 of 220 (673222)
09-16-2012 5:47 PM


To Subbit, Tangle, Jar
I share all your sentiments, but maybe we could help the new member stay on topic.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Tangle, posted 09-16-2012 5:52 PM Percy has responded

    
Tangle
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Posts: 4408
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 179 of 220 (673223)
09-16-2012 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Percy
09-16-2012 5:47 PM


Re: To Subbit, Tangle, Jar
Sorry boss but it needed saying. It always needs saying.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Percy, posted 09-16-2012 5:47 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Percy, posted 09-16-2012 6:04 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15491
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 180 of 220 (673224)
09-16-2012 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Tangle
09-16-2012 5:52 PM


Re: To Subbit, Tangle, Jar
Tangle writes:

Sorry boss but it needed saying. It always needs saying.

Yes, you're right, but you could say it while including a nod to the topic.

You'd think people like Genologist would at least, before making such assertions, try to gather evidence of greater immoral behavior among those who accept evolution. Since the creation/evolution divide has a fair degree of correspondence with the conservative/liberal divide, that liberals are often regarded as gullibly soft-headed dupes for those in need would seem to be evidence against Genologist's hypothesis. Probably his evidence for scientific frauds and hoaxes is equally weak.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Tangle, posted 09-16-2012 5:52 PM Tangle has not yet responded

    
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