Free will, perfection and limits on god

I'd say yes, but again its hard to answer comfortably without more context and without knowing where you are going with this. I don't think omniscience neccessarily includes foresight.Perhaps we could do this more than one question at a time.

I'm going to assume that our senses tell us what is actually there for this situation, since that is how I think you are assuming as well. We won't get anywhere if we don't assume the same things By sensation, do you mean the stimulus as it is being sensed? If so, then I would not consider that situation an error. The distinction between the sensations that we call red and green is the energy the photons have (their wavelengths) when they hit the receptors in our eyes. But I don't understand how these wavelengths could be swapped.Here is how I see your situation:Red

So you would change your answer if you knew where I was going with this? Are you going to change your beliefs about God if you don't like where this is going?? No free will is where we are going.How about we start here. You say that God is omniscient, but that it doesn't necessarily include foresight. I say that it does, and seals the deal for no free will.Actually, omniscience itself is enough to kill free will. If God knows something is going to happen, then it will happen because God knows that it will. Omniscience and foresight are one and the same for God because God knows everything.Is that the context you are looking for?

I don't think that god's knowledge of something happening is the cause for that thing to happen. God and I know that if I drop a baseball it will fall to the ground but niether of our knowledge of this is the reason the ball falls (but a baseball doesn't have a choice, nor free will).I think it is possible for god to know what decision I am going to make, but that doesn't prevent me from actually making the decision, I still have the free will to choose which decision. I don't think god plays that active of a role to know every decision I'm going to make before I make it, although he is capable. For example, during my drive home tonight, am I going to change lanes 10 feet after mile marker 15 or will it be 20 feet, perhaps 30. Do you think god knows?I think god is capable of knowing the answer at any given point in time, but I don't think he does know because it is my choice. I'll decide when I get there and there are an infinite number of factors that could change when I switch lanes.

Catholic Scientist If god has knowledge{past tense} then the event he has knowledge of cannot change due to free will else it would negate the knowledge of the event and therefore the knowledge could not have been available to him.This paradox is a consequence of the possesion of knowledge of an event is limited to the speed of light.Information cannot be obtained faster than this rate.

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And since you know you cannot see yourself,
so well as by reflection, I, your glass,
will modestly discover to yourself,
that of yourself which you yet know not of

I agree that if god has knowledge of a decision that I'm going to make then the decision must be predetermined and I lose my free will. I believe that god doesn't know every decision I'm going to make and allows me to have free will, but if he wanted to know what I'm going to do then he could take away my free will and know my decision before I make it. For example, by making it impossible for me to make a decision other than the one he predetermined. I don't think god's knowledge is limited by anything.

I don't think God's knowledge is the cause either. EDIT: Although I did speak in tones that may lead you to believe I thought otherwise. What I meant was that once that knowledge is known, then it is set for sure. The fact that it could be known at all means that the events were set even before they were known. (There's an assumption about knowledge in there too...something like to know something means that it's true...I dunno, I'm too tired to think about that now). God's knowledge of which option you choose never prevents you from choosing that option, but it does prevent you from choosing any other option. So you don't think God is omniscient then? If God is omniscient, then God does know how far after the marker you will change lanes, and further God knows when you will start thinking about changing lanes.So God knows some decisions you will make, and not others?This message has been edited by QBert14000, 05-04-2005 12:19 AM

Some scientists speculate that beyond the speed of light, time reverses. So effectively, you could go back in time if you went faster than the speed of light. This is theoretically possible through wormholes (which are thought to occur in space at a size billions of times smaller than an atom), and thus time travel is theoretically possible. From that, knowledge can be gained by traveling faster than the speed of light because you have traveled back in time and learned something.Btw, are you going to answer my other post?

Does God consult a book or some other source of knowledge about the universe for this information... ...or did God create the universe exactly the way God wanted it (which includes laying out a plan for all time)? Here you say that God predetermined a decision that you had to make, which implies that God wanted it to happen that way.EDIT: (You need this to understand what I refer to below. I forgot that I didn't post this earlier). One way to think about omniscience: All the events in the universe are painted on a grand canvas that God walks up to. The beginning of the universe is on the left, and the end is on the right. He can see all the events in the universe. He can trace a life from beginning to end, and all the events before and all the events after that given life. In this way, God knows what will happen at any point in time in the universe.There is a difference between God walking up to the painting from earlier and gaining the information that way and God creating and mapping out the entire universe exactly the way God wanted it to be.This message has been edited by QBert14000, 05-04-2005 12:22 AMThis message has been edited by QBert14000, 05-04-2005 12:23 AM

Well it seems we are making progress.My point is that this point can be extended to other sensory data - our perception of distance, for instance. To the point where any systematic and undetectable variationin what our senses reported cannot be considered an error for exactly the same reason the "green"/"red" swap cannot be considered an error.

Catholic Scientist Which I suppose would be OK in a vacuum world where yours is the only decision that need be altered.However since any alteration of actions he takes on your part need have an immediate efect on all other action that will occur after that then what of all the others who's free will is therefore altered?

Sorry, but I still don't see what is being swapped in your "red"/"green" example. The way I see it, nothing changed, so I don't see how there could be an error at all.

I think god is omniscient and has the power to know the future if he choses to. I don't think god layed out a plan for all time. If this were true then we are all robots, just running the program that god wrote before we were even born. This view would cause me to lose respect for god. I don't think he created a bunch of robots where some are programmed to love him and some are programed to be evil. I think god gives us the choice to love him or to sin. Like I said earlier, if I believed it was all mapped out already I would just run around sinning all the time and then blame it on god for planning my life to be that way. When I sin, its my fault and I chose to sin.About the painting metaphor:I don't think god painted the unverse and then later pressed the start button, or said "Go!". I think god is painting the universe as time passes. Now if he wants to use his power to make sure the painting has certain details in the future, I think he is capable. But again, I don't think the painting is finished yet.

More than one person might have to lose their free will for something to happen that god specifically wants to happen. Which is another reason I think he would just stay out of it and let me make my own decisions rather than starting the complications.

Catholic Scientist, I would like to say that I am not attacking your views, just applying logic to them, and also that logic does not necessarily make things right. These two are incompatible. If God is omniscient, then God must know everything. That includes the future. But God knows what will happen through all of time, so it doesn't matter if God laid out the plan God's self or if something else did. Really? Why is that? You seem to imply that you would choose to run around sinning. If God mapped everything out, you would actually only be running around sinning if God wanted you to be. The metaphore does not imply this. It is merely a way of understanding omniscience when God didn't map out the universe. Sidelined has begun to address God predetermining or knowing certain details and not others already, so I don't need to repeat that here. Now, do animals have free will?