YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, adonai, lord, elohim, god, allah, Allah thread.

Right on the mark! Bullseye!! Touche'!!! The church I used to attend ALSO misinformed me about the religion of Islam! They said "Allah" was derived from Baal, the head of the Canaanite pantheon of gods. Then I got into a religious discussion with a Muslim during my 4th year in college, and he told me exactly the same thing that Muslim girl told you!!

"Jehovah" is definitely crap; it's a germanic trasliteration of the unpronouncable 'YHWH'.

What nobody here seems to realize is that there are two separate traditions of the creation in Genesis with two dissimilar names for 'God'. Two different groups of people got together with their stories and a Redactor combined the stories, and that's why there are different names for God. That's the history. Anyone care to comment on this??

Thankyou Amlodhi; I'll have to study what you've just written because I am obviously a freshman on this subject while you're apparently a senior! The names of God in the OT is definitely a complex topic as you say, and as a critcal-scientific thinker that is why I cannot just put all of my faith into one particular sectarian interpretation of it. I will ask a few ?'s of you, and I will do research in order to falsify or verify your possible answers if you wish. Perhaps others writing in this thread may wish to comment, but that's up to them.
1. I have heard that 'Elohim' contains a feminine aspect. Do you know anything about this?
2. Why were ancient Jews(& even Jews nowadays)not allowed to say the name of YHWH? What's so incredibly cosmically important about the "name" of a god?
3. Thanks for setting me straight on "J&Y". During my life as a Gigantopithicus several thousand years ago, I read about the German translation of Y into J(somewhere),& then I forgot all about it. I'll have to find that reference.
4. I'm aware of the Canaanite name 'El' for God. Do you possibly know some history behind how 'El' ended up in the OT?
5. Can you elaborate on how, when, and why, for example, "Ishbaal became Ishbosheth?
I think these ?'s are important not only for 'knowledge' sake, but also to show that that the ancient Jews were highly influenced by the cultures around them. Now it's time to take on Buzsaw.[This message has been edited by Prozacman, 10-08-2003][This message has been edited by Prozacman, 10-08-2003]

Whooaah! Hold yer hosses buddy. Have you discussed the ancient moon-goddess Artemis;her Greek name, and her possible connection to the moon-goddess of the ancestors of Abram at HARAN. It is just a hypothesis of mine: these 2 goddesses are really the same gal, and I'm still working on the idea. But if you don't think it's worth researching, I'll go it alone.

Well, this is apparently where conservative and liberal bible- scholars take sides. Firstly, my NRSV(New Oxford Annotated Bible,page 3, notes on Genesis.2.4b-25), states, and I quote: "This is a different tradition from(verses) 1.1-2.3 as evidenced by the flowing style and the different order of events of creation". I'll give one example; In the first creation story Elohim creates all the animals before he(they) creates 'man'="human beings"(man& woman are created at the same time), but in the second creation story YHWH-Elohim creates man first and then ceates the animals for Adam to name, and then after naming all the animals, Eve is created.
Secondly, We agree that YHWH-Elohim & Jehovah-Elohim are equivalent forms of the same name of the same God. We do not agree that 'Elohim' in Gen.1.1-2.3 and 'YHWH-Elohim' in Gen.2.4-25 are the same God. Why? Because 'Elohim' is plural(gods), and the history of the Elohim comes from all over the Middle-East and not just Israel. 'El' as it has been stated elswhere was a common name for God.
3rdly, If, as you seem to say Elohim is the 'proper' name for God, and names like YHWH-Elohim are descriptive names for the same God, then why are conservative Jews not allowed to say the name YHWH but are allowed to say Elohim?[This message has been edited by Prozacman, 10-08-2003][This message has been edited by Prozacman, 10-08-2003][This message has been edited by Prozacman, 10-08-2003]

Yes, it would have to be assumed "...that the god/elohim of creation was Jehovah without reference to the name", but only if one refuses to question one's own faith.

OK, I think your points are well taken, but doesn't Islam confine christians & Jews to the upper levels of Hell. That's what I've heard, or was I misinformed(again)?

Give it some time, maybe 500 years, I dunno; the Moslems will probably have a whole bunch of idols. What about that rock in Mecca that everyone is required to journey to once in their lives??
That's correct, but it's mostly the conservative x-ians, from my experience, who believe muslims are headed for hell.[This message has been edited by Prozacman, 10-09-2003]

Were they PARANOID only during the last few centuries BC??? If I had lived with the Jews for a couple thousand years under the DIRECT command of a god like YHWH, I would be paranoid too! If they broke just one teensy-weensy piece of the Mosaic law during the "Judges" years, then they were hideously executed. Where do you get your info. about the Jews not being allowed to say "the name" only during the last few centuries BC? That would be an interesting study. It may give a clue to how the name was REALLY pronounced. You better hope that doesn't happen because then people everywhere could seriously blaspheme.[This message has been edited by Prozacman, 10-10-2003]

Thankyou wonderously!, for your illustrious comments on the ROCK at the "Hajj". I'll have to talk to a religious muslim to get more details, and then I will inform everyone about the ROCK. I thought it was some kind of glassy-meteorite 'sent to earth by Allah' for some weird reason.
Yes, I remember the Jimmy Carter administration when the Iatola Komaynee was on a pedistal in Iran. They do seem to get pretty close to idolatry with people without actually doing it.
I wonder what kind of coniption-fit the fundamentalists would have if somebody snuck in and made off with that rock![This message has been edited by Prozacman, 10-10-2003]

I thought Jacob climbed a latter; I didn't know M. climbed one too! The ROCK, Hmmm, Maybe M. saw the ROCK coming down, got confused and thought it would orbit the earth and take him to heaven to be with Allah. So what did M. do?? He climbed the highest mountain he could find, grabbed hold of the ROCK as it went by, and then smashed into the ground at Mecca! And, it's no wonder M. had a bunch of wives. They all thought he was Superman after that falling ROCK stunt!

I agree; it would be highly inflammatory and prejudicial to say that the Jews stopped saying the "name" because of a mental quirk like paranoia. However, it is my opinion that extreme forms of religion, if indeed that is the case here, can lead some highly impressionable people down the road to mental-illness. I also agree with you that it is hurtful to call another persons religion "groundless-superstition", and that the "name" didnot fall into disuse because the Jews "fell away" from God. In fact, in my previous readings on Jewish History, I came away with the distinct impression that during the Babylonian-Captivity, if the Jews uttered the "name", then they were in danger of being executed.

OK, so Jews & Christians will be given one last shot at repentance when they stand before Allah on Judgement-Day. Sounds like a better deal than what most fundamentalist-christians offer. That is: When anybody reaches Judgement-Day without having been "born-again", sorry; their toast. That's what I used to believe! But what about all the other religious people who are not Jews, Christians, or Moslems. Does one go to the firey-pit if one is a Buddist, or Hindu, etc., and they stand before Allah on J-Day? What happens to the so-called souls of the Cro-Magnon people of 20,000 years ago, the Neanderthal of 40,000 years ago, the prehistoric American Indians? How about Bonobo Chimps who just happen to be as smart as 5 to 8 year old human children, dolphins&whales, etc.,etc. By the way, what on God-scream-earth is Pacal's Wager against Islam!? PM[This message has been edited by Prozacman, 10-10-2003]

Thankyou Holmes for the insightful comments, and the referral to CNN on what the "Hajj" is all about. It's very interesting reading. I now understand the ROCK(Kaaba) better.PM[This message has been edited by Prozacman, 10-10-2003]