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Author Topic:   YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, adonai, lord, elohim, god, allah, Allah thread.
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5846 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 44 of 298 (60120)
10-08-2003 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
10-05-2003 9:06 PM


Your initial post seems a tad disengenuous.
buzsaw writes:
Mohammed simply eliminated the proper name of the Hebrew god of Abraham, Yahweh from his thinking and his book and ascribed all pertaining to the Biblical Yahweh/Jehovah to his pagan god, Allah... Mohammed intended to have all to believe his god is one and the same as the Biblical god so as to make it palatable for Christians and Jews to convert to Islam and for his religion to be acceptable to all in his drive to herd all of humanity under the umbrella and the domination of his doctrines and his god, Allah.
It is quite obvious that Judaism has done the same thing with past religions, and so has Xtianity many times over (especially when one considers the Catholic church).
How does one view this as M trying to convert Jews and Xtians to a pagan god, rather than his converting his pagan friends to the singular Judeo-Xtian god?
There is no evidence for M slowly getting adherents to change over to a pantheon and disregard Abraham or Jesus as prophets? While they obviously have issues with the Jewish religion, it is more along the lines of a schism which one can equally observe throughout Xtian history (most notably the bloody divide between protestant and catholic).
As has been mentioned, and you have not addressed, modern adherents of Islam believe they are worshipping the same god. If they believe this then how is it not so? If you are correct about M's intentions, perhaps you get the last laugh buz. It appears that rather than converting Xtians to pagans, he opened up a road and the opposite occured.
If they believe they are worshipping the same god, and pray to that god, do their prayers not go to that god?
If anything buz, M was a bit more on target than your Jesus (or his pals). Not only is the story of Jesus a cobbling together of other, much older, pagan deities, but it introduces idolatry in a form not seen in either Judaism or Islam.
Using your own logic why are we not to believe that early Xtians were trying to convert Jews to worship the pagan gods of bacchus/dionysus/etc etc, by simply saying they are the same (son of God in fact)... their insidious plan including the very real introduction of an idol one can worship (the cross) which symbolizies his sacrifice to cleanse you of worldly sins (an almost exact copy of dionysus, etc etc).
Truly, if you want to go down this road with Islam, Xtianity is going to take a much harder hit. Islam has no pagan idols, nor cannibalistic sacraments of blood and flesh. There is but one god and that is allah. Just like the original Judaic faith.
Judge not lest ye be judged...
------------------
holmes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 10-05-2003 9:06 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Prozacman, posted 10-08-2003 2:38 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5846 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 47 of 298 (60150)
10-08-2003 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Prozacman
10-08-2003 2:38 PM


prozacman writes:
doesn't Islam confine christians & Jews to the upper levels of Hell.
Don't Xtians believe Jews and Muslims are going to hell? Heck, even certain denominations of Xtians believe other denominations of Xtians are going to hell.
The most interesting thing, which happens to support my initial argument, is that it is the ones who believe you can "only be saved through Jesus" that usually make such extreme claims.
Hmmmmm. You mean believing and worshipping the one God, which is all that is required by the Old Testament, isn't enough to get one into heaven?
Now (according to these here Xtians) what one has to do is worship Jesus, who died for our sins (and here's a cross you can idolize him by). By eating his flesh (bread) and drinking his blood (wine), or through a watery baptism, one can be cleansed of sins (ie reborn) which allows one to enter heaven. Both options are versions of older Bacchus/Dionysus/ etc etc etc religious rites.
You do not see as much use of pagan rites in Islam. There is but one God. There are no intermediaries nor esoteric rites related to intermediaries.
------------------
holmes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Prozacman, posted 10-08-2003 2:38 PM Prozacman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Prozacman, posted 10-09-2003 1:33 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5846 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 52 of 298 (60312)
10-09-2003 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Prozacman
10-09-2003 1:33 PM


prozacman writes:
What about that rock in Mecca that everyone is required to journey to once in their lives??
A practioner can probably set the record straight on exactly what the Hajj involves, but from what I understand it has nothing to do with worshipping a rock.
From what I understand it is about making the same trip that M did. It's just kind of following in the footsteps kind of thing.
And if I'm not wrong isn't that rock where he threw stones to drive satan away?
I really doubt the tenets of Islam would allow for idolatry in any sense that Xtianity does. In fact fundamentalists are so out of their minds about that subject they blow up historical artifacts which might have had religious meaning.
They do not even allow images or sounds as representations of God.
About the only sucker they fall for is cults of personality. The idea of the Imam which shi'ites hold dear is very close to personality worship, ala worshipping Jesus. But even then I don't think shi'ites allow for an idol to stand in the place of the man.
------------------
holmes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Prozacman, posted 10-09-2003 1:33 PM Prozacman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Pringlesguy7, posted 10-09-2003 7:03 PM Silent H has not replied
 Message 63 by Prozacman, posted 10-10-2003 12:13 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5846 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 53 of 298 (60313)
10-09-2003 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Buzsaw
10-09-2003 12:30 AM


Hey buz, any comments on my posts?
------------------
holmes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Buzsaw, posted 10-09-2003 12:30 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Buzsaw, posted 10-10-2003 12:12 AM Silent H has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5846 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 64 of 298 (60426)
10-10-2003 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Prozacman
10-10-2003 12:13 PM


To combat my own creeping ignorance on the subject, I simply looked it up...
The following is from a cnn online area devoted to the Hajj. All you have to do to get there is go to yahoo and enter "hajj".
"Most people might imagine the Hajj to be a complicated and perhaps demanding version of a Catholic confession -- a visit to God's holiest site for Muslims to plead forgiveness for sins. (Perhaps with a fear that one's sins might be so bad that they can't be overlooked.) In fact, the Hajj is a very happy affair. Essentially, it's a gathering of more than 2 million people who have achieved a "mission of a lifetime." They've arrived at the geographical and physical heart of their religion, so pilgrims are usually elated to have made it to Mecca -- or Makkah, to use the old name that has been reinstated. Mecca marks the spot where, according to tradition, the prophet Abraham first built a shrine to worship God. It was a caravan crossroads through rocky outcroppings in the desert, which grew into a modern, noisy, bustling center.
During the Hajj, the atmosphere is more one of celebration in and around the city, which is open only to Muslims. In a way, that exclusion of non-Muslims is a pity. It prevents much of the world from seeing what a mixed community Islam embraces. There are the colorfully dressed, and often loud and cheerful, Africans -- many from Nigeria. Small, closely huddled groups of women from Indonesia and the Philippines often wind their way through the huge crowds that take over Mecca. A chorus of Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Bosnians, Arabs ... it's truly a melting pot. Men, women and children are all equally in awe of this place they've known only through pictures, and perhaps television.
Add to that jam-packed streets and a mix of languages, and it's amazing that hardly a voice is raised in anger, or confrontation witnessed. Everyone really tries to help each other through this annual miracle of logistics and mass movement of people. And that's what the Hajj mostly is -- a movement through the desert. The pilgrims flood into Mecca by air, sea, motor vehicles and sometimes still the odd camel caravan, which is how it was done in the "old" days.
Many pilgrims arrive having made a trip to the huge Prophet's Mosque in Medina -- a city that first became home to Mohammed, when he and his early followers were driven out of Mecca. It's considered a great blessing to pray at this remarkable mosque.
Once in Mecca, the first goal of the pilgrims is to get over to the Great Mosque that surrounds the best known structure symbolizing Islam -- the Kaaba. The Kaaba is a cubic stone structure the size of a modest house, but it's clad in a black silk cloth, with Arabic embroidered onto it in gold. Pilgrims rush to see this sight to remind themselves that they've actually arrived at the heart of Islam -- the center of their religion. The Kaaba is the location that Muslims turn to pray toward daily. Blessings for prayers in the holy Great Mosque are considered to be multiplied thousands of times.
The Kaaba is the shrine that Muslims turn to five times each day when praying. During the Hajj, pilgrims circle the Kaaba seven times.

But it comes as a surprise to most that the core purpose of the Hajj is not to look out on the wonders of the Kaaba and the beautiful mosque, but to look within -- to discover oneself. The pilgrimage involves a trek through the desert to the tent city at Mina, and from there, on to the plain of Arafat. It was here on a small hill that Mohammed preached his last sermon, declaring that Muslims must conduct the pilgrimage in this particular manner. It was a ritual dating back to the time of Abraham and follows mostly the events he experienced in affirming his faith to God. That final sermon by Mohammed set in stone the pilgrimage duty for those who were to follow Islam for centuries on.
The Hajj pilgrims stay in Arafat until sunset before weaving their way back to Mecca, again, via Mina. But it's those crucial hours in the desert where Muslims are supposed to discover what the Hajj is all about. That time is meant to be the most honest in a person's life -- an honest reflection on all that a person has done right and wrong. Then comes the request to God for forgiveness, and the chance to make a fresh start.
In a way, it's not what you do during the Hajj that matters.
It's what you do after, and perhaps there comes the understanding."
I'd say good luck on anyone trying to steal a house-size "rock". But if someone did, the above suggests they'd just build another one. It seems to be an overly decorative "you are here" sign.
------------------
holmes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Prozacman, posted 10-10-2003 12:13 PM Prozacman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Prozacman, posted 10-10-2003 6:12 PM Silent H has not replied

  
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