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Author Topic:   The Power/Reality Of Demons And Supernatural Evil.
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 151 of 225 (76249)
01-02-2004 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Rrhain
01-01-2004 5:42 PM


Re: Demons and epistemology
Rrhain,

You mean you don't know what peer-reviewed journals you've been published in? Off the top of your head, you can't remember the title of a journal that was good enough to publish you?

Nah, I just wanted you to beg, so it wouldn't look like I was blowing my own horn....

Princeton Univ Press, Monographs in Population Ecology.

Acta Biotheoretica, 1969, (with HL Lucas and others). Territorial behavior and habitat selection in birds.

American Naturalist, 1974, with CC Smith, Optimal size and number of offspring; 1982, with Oksanen, Food Chain dynamics.

Perspectives in Biology and Medicine, 1977. The regulation of plant communities by the food chains exploiting them.

Oikos, 1987, Food Chain Dynamics, the Central Theory of Ecology.

Current Ornithology, 1986. Population Regulation in the Dickcissel.

These are approximate. I actually like a paper in Am Nat, 1978, on rich and poor communities, and one on Junco populations, Bird Banding, 1972 (?).

Thanks for asking.

Now I know you're a fraud.

You're just saying that!

We should discuss applied epistemology sometime. See how you arrive at conclusions....

Or maybe, as we used to say on other playgrounds, "Oh, yeah? Well it takes one to know one!"

Or how about,

"You wish!" or "But for the grace of God,..."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Rrhain, posted 01-01-2004 5:42 PM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Rrhain, posted 01-02-2004 4:18 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has not yet responded

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 152 of 225 (76256)
01-02-2004 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Phat
01-02-2004 11:36 AM


Re: a personal encounter with the supernatural
Hey, Phatboy,

I first wanted to thank you for your reports, and to affirm to you, as a professional epistemologist, anecdotes are useful in the process of getting to the truth.

Second, the Bible Codes studies by Witztum and his colleagues, best summarized in a book by Satinover, prove scientifically beyond a reasonable doubt that Genesis was written by some person who was not human. The devil is discussed there, and basically proved beyond reasonable doubt to be the best explanation for your experience. You should learn from the experience, to study diligently how to minimize the influence of the demonic in your life.

You will also need to "receive the love of the truth" since the sorts of demonic manifestations you observed are unusual. It's more likely that demons of doubt will stir up skeptics to "darken counsel." You are supposed to be learning how "answer" them.

Do you know about the book, "Pigs in the Parlor?" You'll like it.

Stephen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Phat, posted 01-02-2004 11:36 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Rrhain, posted 01-02-2004 4:17 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has responded
 Message 193 by badandigood, posted 01-23-2004 11:20 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has responded

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6098
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 153 of 225 (76277)
01-02-2004 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Stephen ben Yeshua
01-02-2004 2:31 PM


Re: a personal encounter with the supernatural
Stephen ben Yeshua responds to me:

quote:
Second, the Bible Codes studies by Witztum and his colleagues, best summarized in a book by Satinover, prove scientifically beyond a reasonable doubt that Genesis was written by some person who was not human.

Incorrect. On the contrary, they merely show a mathematical necessity. Any sufficiently long text will show the exact same thing. Do you really need us to post the link to assassinations predicted in Moby Dick found in the exact same way as those found in the Bible?

Are you claiming Melville wasn't human? That Moby Dick was inspired by god?


Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-02-2004 2:31 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-04-2004 11:50 AM Rrhain has responded
 Message 156 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-04-2004 12:08 PM Rrhain has not yet responded

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6098
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 154 of 225 (76278)
01-02-2004 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Stephen ben Yeshua
01-02-2004 2:09 PM


Re: Demons and epistemology
Well done, Stephen.

Now, is there a particular reason you were behaving like a jerk rather than just coming out with it when asked?


Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-02-2004 2:09 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has not yet responded

    
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 155 of 225 (76468)
01-04-2004 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Rrhain
01-02-2004 4:17 PM


Moby Dick inspired writing?
Rrhain,

First, the discussion of Moby Dick re Witztum's Bible codes is, as Jehovah put it in the codes, a darkening of council. I regard it as a straw man, since it comes from some reporter's discussion of the Codes, and was never reviewed by Witztum himself as an acceptable form of rebuttal.

Second, the "codes" in Moby Dick are not (very) implausible. The ones in Genesis are. If you scramble the letters in Moby Dick, you still get "codes" largely as found in the original writing. If you scramble the letters in Genesis, the codes disappear. Of course, chance alone produces "codes." Witztum and his colleagues went to great lengths to set up theoretical and monte carlo examinations of the chance probability of the codes they found. They found it very, very unlikely that the codes they found occured by chance.

Third, I actually would expect implausible codes in Moby Dick, and there's a website, Bible Code digest, that explores this. They also report the code study of what Jehovah thought about Moby Dick, where the critic's name was coded (in Job, of course, the only book in the Bible discussing harpooning whales) in revealing verses. Codes, implausible ones, come from supernatural beings, including muses, which I daresay Melville would have confessed to seeking and using.

Fourth, the way a scientist rejects an idea as implausible is he finds the idea unconfirmed. There are many other efforts to confirm the codes which have been successful.

Fifth, the Moby Dick code critics are untrustworthy authorities, based on their failure to abide by accepted rules of scientific proceedure. They basically censored Witztum and Gans' efforts to rebut the Moby Dick critique.

You have to really badly want the Witztum study to be discredited, to pay any attention at all to that Moby Dick critique. This is called wishful thinking. Not generally recommended.

As to my acting like a jerk (another of your posts), it's what fallen humans do. I just wanted to encourage you to believe that, if I can make it to the truth, so can you.

Stephen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Rrhain, posted 01-02-2004 4:17 PM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Rrhain, posted 01-10-2004 4:12 AM Stephen ben Yeshua has responded

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 156 of 225 (76469)
01-04-2004 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Rrhain
01-02-2004 4:17 PM


Re: a personal encounter with the supernatural
Rrhain,

Check this out:

http://www.biblecodedigest.com/page.php/119

Stephen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Rrhain, posted 01-02-2004 4:17 PM Rrhain has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by sidelined, posted 01-04-2004 1:07 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has responded
 Message 165 by Phat, posted 01-06-2004 12:58 AM Stephen ben Yeshua has responded

  
sidelined 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 157 of 225 (76479)
01-04-2004 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Stephen ben Yeshua
01-04-2004 12:08 PM


Re: a personal encounter with the supernatural
Stephan

Check out this site.

http://www.csicop.org/si/9803/bible-code.html


This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-04-2004 12:08 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Phat, posted 01-05-2004 7:51 AM sidelined has not yet responded
 Message 159 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-05-2004 11:57 AM sidelined has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9424
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 158 of 225 (76601)
01-05-2004 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by sidelined
01-04-2004 1:07 PM


Just so ya know, I checked out both of your sites. Personally, I think that the entire Bible Code thing is not realistic, and someone sold a lot of books. Why would God speak to us in code? Does He not say that one must think like a child(full of innocence and wonder) to enter the kingdom of heaven? Not like some Gnostic who seeks to initiate DEEP meaning out of nothing!
Not to disrespect you, Stephen. Perhaps we could surmise that God foreknew that only in this modern era would the technology and wisdom exist to crack the codes. Still, I am skeptical.

[This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-05-2004]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by sidelined, posted 01-04-2004 1:07 PM sidelined has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-05-2004 12:08 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 159 of 225 (76617)
01-05-2004 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by sidelined
01-04-2004 1:07 PM


Re: a personal encounter with the supernatural
Sidelined,

I checked out the site you presented, and regard it as a straw man argument. Drosnin is denied by the authors of the code as really understanding it. Moreover, as I understand Witztum's paper, Thomas has missed the point entirely. So, I'm not impressed.

But thanks for the tip.

Stephen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by sidelined, posted 01-04-2004 1:07 PM sidelined has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by sidelined, posted 01-05-2004 3:48 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has responded

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 160 of 225 (76618)
01-05-2004 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Phat
01-05-2004 7:51 AM


Warfare communication
Phatboy,

You ask,

Why would God speak to us in code?

Satinover's reply to this question directs up back to the biblical idea that we are at war, with an enemy who is sending deceiving messages and disinformation. Then, when at war, if we want to know whether a given message is really from our commander and chief (the Lord of Hosts), it is customary to put codes in the message that identify the author as a trustworthy one.

Normally, such "signature" codes contain no useful information. Only that the surface message is really directives from headquarters. Satinover however describes how the Israelis used the codes to save thousands of lives during the Gulf War, by predicting the date that the scud missile attack would come.

Skepticism kills. Captains of sailing ships were, for 50 years skeptical of James Lind's treatise on limes and scurvy, killing maybe 100,000 sailors unnecessarily. Doctors in Obstetric hospitals killed thousands of new mothers and their babies with childbirth fever, because they were skeptical of Semmelweis' studies on anti-sepsis and hand washing. Today, most cardiovascular deaths are occuring because the National Academy of Sciences is skeptical of Matthias Rath's and Linus Pauling's studies on vitamin C. Love believes all things.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Phat, posted 01-05-2004 7:51 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Rei, posted 01-05-2004 12:51 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has not yet responded

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 4452 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 161 of 225 (76629)
01-05-2004 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Stephen ben Yeshua
01-05-2004 12:08 PM


Re: Warfare communication
"When my critics find a message a message about the assassination of a prime minister encrypted in Moby Dick, I'll believe them." - Michael Drosnin

http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html

[This message has been edited by Rei, 01-05-2004]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-05-2004 12:08 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Dan Carroll, posted 01-05-2004 1:44 PM Rei has not yet responded

    
Dan Carroll 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2006 days)
Posts: 2904
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 162 of 225 (76641)
01-05-2004 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Rei
01-05-2004 12:51 PM


Re: Warfare communication
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Every damn page of Moby Dick has a life lesson.


"It isn't faith that makes good science, it's curiosity."
-Professor Barnhard, The Day the Earth Stood Still
This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Rei, posted 01-05-2004 12:51 PM Rei has not yet responded

    
sidelined 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 163 of 225 (76669)
01-05-2004 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Stephen ben Yeshua
01-05-2004 11:57 AM


Re: a personal encounter with the supernatural
Stephan

Sorry to disappoint you old man but you did not read very carefully. They did not say Drosnin did not understand the code.Here is an excerpt.

Drosnin has been stumping Australia and the world, flattering code-buster Brendan McKay with compliments such as "clown," "liar," "fraud"; and me with, ["Thomas appears not to understand the Bible Code at all."] Drosnin accuses us of "counterfeiting" codes, even though McKay and I do not need to alter even one letter of various texts -- either the puzzles are there, or they're not. (And to Drosnin's dismay, the puzzles continue to turn up everywhere). But Drosnin is also attacking us because our puzzles allegedly do not have "minimality." Not only must hidden words appear close together in a puzzle, they must also be the shortest skip distances for the given word in a fair-sized portion of the text. Drosnin only mentions minimality in passing, buried in the chapter notes at the end of his book:

You will note it is Drosnin not the authors of the article that says "Thomas appears not to understand the Bible Code at all." Now please defend your stance on how Thomas missed the point on Witzum's paper.

Ball is in your court.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-05-2004 11:57 AM Stephen ben Yeshua has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-06-2004 12:02 AM sidelined has not yet responded

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 164 of 225 (76757)
01-06-2004 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by sidelined
01-05-2004 3:48 PM


Re: a personal encounter with the supernatural
Sidelined,

About Thomas and Witztum's paper. Thomas exposes his ignorance of what Witztum did, by focusing on Drosnin, who Witztum and others accuse of misunderstanding what they did. It was Drosnin, not Witztum, who made the assertion about Moby Dick. The best control in Witztum's paper was a scrambling Monte Carlo developement of statistical probabilities associated with the proximity of certain minimal skip phrases. Monte Carlo tests are non-parametric, and extremely robust. They showed that, although the phrases they found were highly probable to occur, it was very unlikely that the minimal skips of the phrases would occur as close together in the text as they did. Thomas never uses statistics this way. His estimates of the number of expected occurances, that were confirmed (duh!), proves only that he doesn't know what rare events to look for, or how to show that they are rare.

If you haven't read carefully the site on Moby Dick that I gave earlier, your accusation of me of not reading carefully was projection.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by sidelined, posted 01-05-2004 3:48 PM sidelined has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9424
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 165 of 225 (76771)
01-06-2004 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by Stephen ben Yeshua
01-04-2004 12:08 PM


Re: Moby Dick
OK Stephen, i made myself read the article. I guess that the reson that I skimmed over it at first was because I am unimpressed with logical persuasions...I prefer emotional persuasions, even though logic is usually more valid. Why would such coding exist, unless God or some superior intelligence knew that it would take humanities own bright minds to sift through the information and literature to find the codes and decipher them. Perhaps we could deduce that some form of superior intelligence is giving some elaborate puzzle problems to some of the bright minds on earth. Maybe this superior intelligence knew just what "Bait" was needed to hook their interest.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-04-2004 12:08 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 03-12-2004 1:39 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
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