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Author Topic:   The Power/Reality Of Demons And Supernatural Evil.
nator
Member (Idle past 2231 days)
Posts: 12961
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 181 of 225 (78187)
01-13-2004 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by Stephen ben Yeshua
01-13-2004 12:56 AM


Re: The Evil Power of Supernatural Inventions
quote:
The beauty of science is that supernatural inventions, or models, can be shown implausible through proper testing.

Um, no they can't.

The supernatural can't be shown to be anything at all by science.

Science copmpletely ignores the supernatural.

Science is use of naturalistic explanations for natural phenomena.

quote:
Of course, we don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, especially this baby. Clearly, if there does exist ontologically a malign supernatural agent, they will be expected to work by generating distracting covers, false, "invented" versions of themselves.

Why do you assume that they would be expected to work in this way?

quote:
Inventions that only enhance their evil agenda.

Define "evil" in a scientific way, please.

IOW, what is the universal scientific definition of "evil" that is agreed upon worldwide, by all scientists?

(I am thinking that you are inappropriately ascribing the power of science to award value jusgements here.)

quote:
But, if they are smarter than we are, and more powerful, we need a very protected laboratory to research them. This we must seek God to obtain.

BING BING BING!

Science has just left the building.

quote:
Epistemologically, we will never know any more about Satan than he wants us to know, unless there is a God more powerful than he is to help us.

That's a nice theology, but is totally your personal opinion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-13-2004 12:56 AM Stephen ben Yeshua has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-13-2004 10:30 AM nator has responded
 Message 188 by Buzsaw, posted 01-18-2004 8:30 PM nator has responded

    
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 182 of 225 (78190)
01-13-2004 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by nator
01-13-2004 10:08 AM


Re: The Evil Power of Supernatural Inventions
Schrafinator,

Isn't there some rule here about unsupported assertions? Check out the Journal of Scientific Exploration for evidence that you are simply making unsupported assertions. Or ignore that reference and stay ignorant, and lose the debate.

Believe the lie, and then you die.

You ask,

Define "evil" in a scientific way, please.

Factors that lower fitness, defined by population genetics. As :ae: as noted, evil has to be defined relative to some subject, of course. Evil, to some genome, is the set of factors that lower its long-term reproductive value. Drives it to extinction.

As I have noted, evolutionary thinking appears to lower the reproductive value of those who choose it, probably because it is not true, is a demonic lie designed to deface and destroy creatures beloved by their creator, and made in His image. The demons, for reasons of their own, hate and are at war with this Creator. But He is more powerful than they are, so the demons try to hurt Him by hurting His creation. They appear to be doing very well with you.

Evil, of course, is best defined in regard to the most enlightened subject in the system. You may not define something as evil to you, but it remains evil (scientifically) if it destroys you or your species, because, being more intelligent than you, it has deceived you.

At least, this a minimalist approach that the science of population genetics would bring to the subject.

Stephen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by nator, posted 01-13-2004 10:08 AM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Abshalom, posted 01-13-2004 7:33 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has responded
 Message 184 by nator, posted 01-14-2004 7:28 AM Stephen ben Yeshua has responded

  
Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 183 of 225 (78282)
01-13-2004 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Stephen ben Yeshua
01-13-2004 10:30 AM


Re: The Evil Power of Supernatural Inventions
Stephen:

With regard to your statement that, "Evil, of course, is best defined in regard to the most enlightened subject in the system. You may not define something as evil to you, but it remains evil (scientifically) if it destroys you or your species, because, being more intelligent than you, it has deceived you."

Question #1: Does your statement, taken in total, personify evil? I mean aren't you representing the concept of evil as an incarnate entity with independent intelligence?

Question #2: Am I to understand that "evil, of course, is best defined in regard to the most enlightened subject in the system" means that you are defining evil by comparison to man as the "most elightened subject in the system" or is some other entity "the most enlightened subject?"

Question #3: If the answers to #1 and #2 are "yes," are you suggesting that Evil Incarnate exists to outwit or be outwitted by Man? (Q3bIs this the Essene "Battle of Light and Darkness" theory? If so:

Question #4: Did YHVH put Evil here and allow it to remain as an eternal challenger of mankind to kind of outwit the morally and mentally feable and be outwitted by the more enlightened of our species? Is this YHVH's brand of survival of the fittest? Does this drive evolution of the species? Or:

Question #5: Is this just some cosmic joke?

Question #6: If a Neolithic man popped into Detroit next week and stuck his tongue on a stainless steel flag pole and it froze fast to the surface, and you were to ask him "what gives?" (Assuming he could express himself in English) Would he say, "A demon has a hold of my tongue and is punishing me for the trangression of desecrating this sacred icon?" Of course you might have to free his frozen tongue from the evil that had outwitted him before you could understand his answer.

[This message has been edited by Abshalom, 01-13-2004]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-13-2004 10:30 AM Stephen ben Yeshua has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-14-2004 12:38 PM Abshalom has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2231 days)
Posts: 12961
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 184 of 225 (78362)
01-14-2004 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by Stephen ben Yeshua
01-13-2004 10:30 AM


Re: The Evil Power of Supernatural Inventions
quote:
Isn't there some rule here about unsupported assertions?

Um, yes.

That's why I wrote what I wrote in my last message about your unsupported assertions.

quote:
Check out the Journal of Scientific Exploration for evidence that you are simply making unsupported assertions. Or ignore that reference and stay ignorant, and lose the debate.

Um, it appears to me that this journal is a peer-reviewed journal dedicated to exploring fringe science.

Why this is relevant, I don't understand.

quote:
Believe the lie, and then you die.

You ask,

Define "evil" in a scientific way, please.

Factors that lower fitness, defined by population genetics. As :ae: as noted, evil has to be defined relative to some subject, of course. Evil, to some genome, is the set of factors that lower its long-term reproductive value. Drives it to extinction.


Really?

Since when does science make value judgements?

Isn't it true that without the mass extinction of the dinosaurs, the proliferation of mammals, and the eventual emergence of primates including humans, would likely not have happened here on Earth?

So, was the extinction of the dinosaurs "evil"?

I think you are making this up as you go along.

quote:
As I have noted, evolutionary thinking appears to lower the reproductive value of those who choose it, probably because it is not true, is a demonic lie designed to deface and destroy creatures beloved by their creator, and made in His image.

Oh-kaaaayyyy...

All the Biologists over the last 100 years are under demonic influence?

The evolution of bacteria we can observe in a petri dish is also demonic?

The amazing similarity between fossil relatedness trees and genetic trees is demonic?

quote:
The demons, for reasons of their own, hate and are at war with this Creator.

Bald religiously-based assumption.

quote:
But He is more powerful than they are, so the demons try to hurt Him by hurting His creation.

Bald, religiously-based assumption.

quote:
They appear to be doing very well with you.

LOL!!

Do you accuse everyone who disagrees with you of demonic influence, or only those who ask you questions you can't seem to answer?

I'm glad we don't live a few centuries ago, and that you don't have the power to send the Inquisitorial posse after me.

Or I'm glad we both don't live in Salem back when folks there got a little crazy.

quote:
Evil, of course, is best defined in regard to the most enlightened subject in the system.

Define "enlightened" in a scientific sense, please.

quote:
You may not define something as evil to you, but it remains evil (scientifically) if it destroys you or your species, because, being more intelligent than you, it has deceived you.

By that definition, just about everything is, or could be, evil, including God.

quote:
At least, this a minimalist approach that the science of population genetics would bring to the subject.

Please show me a population genetics study that makes any valued judgements regarding extinction.

Now, I notice that you ignored most of my previous post. I'd actually like you to address my rebuttals of your claims. That's why I wrote them.

I'll restate here for your convenience:

quote:
Stephen: The beauty of science is that supernatural inventions, or models, can be shown implausible through proper testing.

Schrafinator: Um, no they can't.

The supernatural can't be shown to be anything at all by science.
Science copmpletely ignores the supernatural.

Science is use of naturalistic explanations for natural phenomena.

quote:
Stephen: Of course, we don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, especially this baby. Clearly, if there does exist ontologically a malign supernatural agent, they will be expected to work by generating distracting covers, false, "invented" versions of themselves.

Schrafinator: Why do you assume that they would be expected to work in this way?

quote:
Stephen: Epistemologically, we will never know any more about Satan than he wants us to know, unless there is a God more powerful than he is to help us.

Schrafinator: That's a nice theology, but is totally your personal opinion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-13-2004 10:30 AM Stephen ben Yeshua has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-27-2004 8:54 AM nator has not yet responded

    
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 185 of 225 (78426)
01-14-2004 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Abshalom
01-13-2004 7:33 PM


Re: The Evil Power of Supernatural Inventions
Abshalom,

Great questions. Most stimulating!

Question #1: Does your statement, taken in total, personify evil? I mean aren't you representing the concept of evil as an incarnate entity with independent intelligence?

Maybe. My definition would call the meterorites that destroyed so many species, before men were around, evil, with or without the presence of a God to see His creation destroyed, or an evil angel dragging the meterorite into our orbit. Evil is live spelled backwards, so anything that reverses the flow of life, including diversity in life, is evil.

But, if there are higher beings, events that "grieve" these beings are more evil. Without such beings, a predation becomes moot, not necessarily evil, because the life of the prey ends, but the predator lives better. Maybe. An abundant predator that eats the last prey individual commits an evil act, because now both will go extinct.

But with a higher being, say a human shepherd of the prey, the act of predation, say of a wolf on the shepherd's favorite lamb, is evil. Because the life of the higher being (and the highest being gets to call who or what is higher--that's what higher means, in part.) is diminished. A good shepherd keeps the wolves eating the rabbits that compete with his sheep, keeping the mystique of wolves, population control of the rabbits, and his favorite lamb. Good, not evil.

Question #2: Am I to understand that "evil, of course, is best defined in regard to the most enlightened subject in the system" means that you are defining evil by comparison to man as the "most elightened subject in the system" or is some other entity "the most enlightened subject?"

Again, maybe. That's for us to find out. We can assume that we are here, but most people are convinced (how? we wonders!) that there are also at least two levels of higher beings in our ecosystem, angels, including demons, and this Person, Jehovah, "my shepherd" who reports about Himself that He created everything, including angels.

Question #3: If the answers to #1 and #2 are "yes," are you suggesting that Evil Incarnate exists to outwit or be outwitted by Man? (Q3bIs this the Essene "Battle of Light and Darkness" theory? If so:

No, "evil incarnate" as I understand orthodox theology, exists because it was created with free will, which it used to become, or invent, evil. It proves that Jehovah is good for His word. He told the angels they were free to love Him (with certain consequences) or not (other consequences.) One took Him up on it, and choose to not love Him. Without that love relationship, this angel fell into rebellion, pride, and other ways that destroyed life. Life on earth, at least. Was evil.

But, when man was created, he was given dominion over the earth which apparently had been the rule of the angel who chose rebellion, not love. This put man in conflict with the devil, who already had various other reasons to "hate" men. Men exist to outwit the devil, which they can do, according to Jehovah, if they refuse to "eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil," but do eat from "the tree of life." Same choice the devil had, actually. Live by loving and walking with God, or live by your own independent knowledge of good and evil. The latter is evil because it kills men and their love-life with God. So, men and the devil are "enemies" because of the issue of who rules earth. Also, men being made in the image of God, and being loved by God, Satan can hurt God by hurting men. This men must work to avoid, by outwitting evil. Note that "devil" is "d' evil."

Question #4: Did YHVH put Evil here and allow it to remain as an eternal challenger of mankind to kind of outwit the morally and mentally feable and be outwitted by the more enlightened of our species? Is this YHVH's brand of survival of the fittest? Does this drive evolution of the species?

Sort of. YHVH created man with the same free will He gave the devil, and He remains good for His word. If we want to use it to join the devil's rebellion, or start one of our own, He will let us do so. He promises us certain consequences for either choice, and allows either the devil or us to remain around long enough to experience those promises. There are lots of selections, or choices going on here, and strength of moral character, or mind don't really matter. It's all a matter of choosing life over death, hating evil. Those who choose life with integrity, bringing to bear as much of their human strength as they are able ("with all their heart") find life, and get strengthened and enlightened to get more life (a bigger heart). Actually, there are seven related choices that determine all: life, truth, law, "fear" of God, serving God, a good name, favor with men. But it works like this: first you recognize the importance of responsibility, that you are the one who is deciding what's going to happen. It's you doing the choosing. Abdication of responsibility is a default choice of death. With responsibility, you choose life, with all its pains, sorrows, labors, trials, tests, joys, loves, pleasures, wars. Then you realize you need truth to live, so you choose to receive the love of truth. Truth leads you to discover the laws of the universe (including God), which you come to love and choose to keep. Then you realize that you need a proper suite of emotions to keep these laws, so you choose the proper emotions to make law-keeping more effective. Fear (of God) is the least palatable, so you choose it first. The others just come along. With this fear, you choose to serve God, for fear of what He will do to you if you don't obey. As you obey, you get great rewards of riches and pleasure, but realize that you will have more life if you spend these to get a good name, and to make people think well of you. So you end up choosing to spend all these riches trying to help people.

Thus the species is brought to greater glory. Evolved, if you like.

Question #5: Is this just some cosmic joke?

No, although Jehovah gets a good laugh at unbelievers trying to do the "God is dead" thing.

Question #6: If a Neolithic man popped into Detroit next week and stuck his tongue on a stainless steel flag pole and it froze fast to the surface, and you were to ask him "what gives?" (Assuming he could express himself in English) Would he say, "A demon has a hold of my tongue and is punishing me for the trangression of desecrating this sacred icon?" Of course you might have to free his frozen tongue from the evil that had outwitted him before you could understand his answer.

Probably not. He might say, after I freed him, that a demon made him do the stupid thing of putting his tongue on the flag-pole. Reports of missionaries from visits to near-stone-age tribes, always commenting on how stupid these people were, say that these peoples could actually see the demons.

I have found that the most human way to choose life is to say it socially, think about it sapienistically, and accept responsibility for my choice. Language, society, intellect, free will. That's a big part of what humanity is about.

Stephen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Abshalom, posted 01-13-2004 7:33 PM Abshalom has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Abshalom, posted 01-15-2004 3:59 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has responded

  
Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 186 of 225 (78689)
01-15-2004 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Stephen ben Yeshua
01-14-2004 12:38 PM


Re: The Evil Power of Supernatural Inventions
Good afternoon, RaSBeY.

In Message #185 you say, "My definition [of evil] would call the meteorites that destroyed so many species, before men were around, evil, with or without the presence of a God to see His creation destroyed, or an evil angel dragging the meteorite into our orbit."

Okay:

1) I was under the impression that you would've thought God to have been present at all times. Is this not the case? If you are not of the opinion that God is present at all times past, present, and future, then most all of what you have posted in this topic and others would appear to me to be void of foundation.

2) Let me look at your statement differently, or let me edit it this way: You say "My definition would call the meteorites that destroyed so many species... evil ... with or without the presence of a God ..." Are you saying that from your point of view, one can assign the quality of evil to an inanimate object (not endowed with life or spirit) with or without the existence of God and his definition of evil?

3) Wouldn't assigning the quality of evil to a rock make that rock an animate object from the point of view that it possesses a 'spirit' or 'consciousness?' Is this really a Judeo/Christian concept, or isn't this kind of theology rather pagan, animistic, voodoo, or whatever?

4) So, is it your view that a meteor is something other than an inanimate rock flying through space? Or are you setting up some kind of trick question deal ... like the meteor becomes or assumes evil when it becomes a meteorite that destroys species ... otherwise it is just an inanimate rock flying through space?

5) Now, back to the part of your statement regarding God's presence to see a part of Creation destroyed ... if God has been present at all times, including from the beginning thence forward in time, would he not have been present to witness the destruction of species due to a large meterorite striking Earth? Come on, Stephen, you're the dude who claims to have active conversations with God. As a scientist, did it never occur to you to ask him how the species became extinct and whether he was there to witness it?

(I'm beginning to suspect that you were one of those professors who gets his rocks off dreaming up trick questions for mid-term exams.)

6) And speaking of your former profession, and your role in developing the theory of trophic cascade, how can an inanimate rock's collision with Earth and the resulting physical and ecological devastation be characterized as evil when it was the destruction that created the niche for the development of humans (whom you characterize as "the favorite lambs" on whose behalf all natural predation is not evil)?

Now as to your next statement, "Evil is live spelled backwards, so anything that reverses the flow of life, including diversity in life, is evil" ... have you been out drinking with Buz?

The fact that IN MODERN ENGLISH, evil spelled backwards coincidentally renders L-I-V-E is totally irrelevant to your supposition that the flow of life can even be reversed. It's like your trying to say that the flow of life actually can be reversed and it's proven by the fact that live spelled backwards is evil.

Vita spelled backwards is Ativ. What the hell is ativ? Dog spelled backwards is god. Does that mean that God is a dog turned inside out, or that a dog running backwards would prove anything metaphysical?

I guess I'll wind up for today with a comment on your suggestion that an evil angel would drag a meteor into the path of the Earth to cause a collision. Man oh man! Now we not only have demons riding inside people (voodooism), demons residing inside meteors (animism), but angels physically dragging meteors into the path of an oncoming planet (space gholem tractor-beamism)! Oh, wait a minute, I just realized, angel spelled incorrectly is angle, and that proves that angels can alter the course of meteors.

Stephen, I guess my question would be, "If God so loved the world, wouldn't he take the time to set the meteor back on a non-collision course?"

Peace from ground zero.

[This message has been edited by Abshalom, 01-15-2004]

[This message has been edited by Abshalom, 01-15-2004]

[This message has been edited by Abshalom, 01-15-2004]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-14-2004 12:38 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-18-2004 10:43 AM Abshalom has not yet responded

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 187 of 225 (79212)
01-18-2004 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by Abshalom
01-15-2004 3:59 PM


Re: The Evil Power of Supernatural Inventions
Abshalom,

Now, I think I know what name I should use, if I do a search for my destiny in the Bible Codes. Thanks!

But to your post,

Are you saying that from your point of view, one can assign the quality of evil to an inanimate object (not endowed with life or spirit) with or without the existence of God and his definition of evil?

Yes.

3) Wouldn't assigning the quality of evil to a rock make that rock an animate object from the point of view that it possesses a 'spirit' or 'consciousness?' Is this really a Judeo/Christian concept, or isn't this kind of theology rather pagan, animistic, voodoo, or whatever?

Yes, but even pagans deserve some sort of break. I'll hate their animistic rock with them, the one that stubs their toe.

4) So, is it your view that a meteor is something other than an inanimate rock flying through space? Or are you setting up some kind of trick question deal ... like the meteor becomes or assumes evil when it becomes a meteorite that destroys species ... otherwise it is just an inanimate rock flying through space?

In my dedication to overcoming evil with good, I would declare a meteor coming to earth to extinquish my beloved Dickcissels as evil, and would happily go after it's destruction. Other rocks spinning through space are actually good, interesting, something to study.

Come on, Stephen, you're the dude who claims to have active conversations with God. As a scientist, did it never occur to you to ask him how the species became extinct and whether he was there to witness it?

He was there, and it pissed Him off. "Holy Spirit." He said, "Go down there and assess the damage." and to Yeshua, "I'm going to get Satan for this!" (loose translation)

how can an inanimate rock's collision with Earth and the resulting physical and ecological devastation be characterized as evil when it was the destruction that created the niche for the development of humans (whom you characterize as "the favorite lambs" on whose behalf all natural predation is not evil)?

No, no, He used the mess Satan made to create a place for us, to use us to "get Satan." Deeper vengence, to have Satan's own handiwork turned on him, to shame him, rob him of his power and authority.

have you been out drinking with Buz?

I wish.

The fact that IN MODERN ENGLISH, evil spelled backwards coincidentally renders L-I-V-E is totally irrelevant to your supposition that the flow of life can even be reversed. It's like your trying to say that the flow of life actually can be reversed and it's proven by the fact that live spelled backwards is evil.

Vita spelled backwards is Ativ. What the hell is ativ? Dog spelled backwards is god. Does that mean that God is a dog turned inside out, or that a dog running backwards would prove anything metaphysical?

I do most science for fun, getting serious from time to time when a lot is at stake. The fact that vita spelled backward means nothing is part of the reason I quit sending mine around. But, I walk dogs as often as I can, because it's easier to pray, "Lord, give me that kind of energy, at the thought of going out with You! Make me that delighted in my food, make me love Your touch so much, etc." Looking at dogs is backwards from looking at God. In an instructive way.

Divine intent or coincidence? Duh. He has His hand in everything important. That, in fact, is what the word "important" means. The "portending" part of important refers to God involvement. Why I know that my "vita" is not important. Won't always manifest the same way, of course. But when it's there, use it. What I wish I always said. This is why the "natural selection, random mutation" of evolution is so implausible.

Man oh man! Now we not only have demons riding inside people (voodooism), demons residing inside meteors (animism), but angels physically dragging meteors into the path of an oncoming planet (space gholem tractor-beamism)! Oh, wait a minute, I just realized, angel spelled incorrectly is angle, and that proves that angels can alter the course of meteors.

There you go, wanting to prove things again! But, yes, damn, we need to figure those evil angelic suckers out! "Get the truth before the truth gets you!"

Stephen, I guess my question would be, "If God so loved the world, wouldn't he take the time to set the meteor back on a non-collision course?"

Nowadays, I sure hope so. In those days, the responsible created free will agent out there wanted the meteor to strike the earth, so He was reluctant to interfere with His delegated authorities. But, ta da! here we are. "Lord, any meteors out there on a collision course with earth, we ask You to move out of the way. For the Dickcissel's sake. No, don't worry about me--You can take me home any time or way you like. What about other souls? Oh, yeh, that's good. Keep the meteors away so John Doe down the street has a bit more time to think about changing his mind about dealing with You. Yeh, I'll drop by for a visit, keep the issue front-burner. And You fix the meteors? Sounds like a deal to me. Thanks, Dad. Sure love ya."

Amen?

Stephen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Abshalom, posted 01-15-2004 3:59 PM Abshalom has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 188 of 225 (79315)
01-18-2004 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by nator
01-13-2004 10:08 AM


Re: The Evil Power of Supernatural Inventions
Science copmpletely ignores the supernatural.

Yes, we know, like the proverbial ostridge with head securely buried in the sand.


The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buz
This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by nator, posted 01-13-2004 10:08 AM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by nator, posted 03-11-2004 11:22 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 189 of 225 (79320)
01-18-2004 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by nator
01-11-2004 8:29 AM


You ignored me the first time I asked you to address this.

Please respnd, and explain how a supposed "fair and balanced" news organization can call itself a "part of the military team"?

It's called getting back to topic. Let it rest.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by nator, posted 01-11-2004 8:29 AM nator has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 190 of 225 (79325)
01-18-2004 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by nator
01-11-2004 8:03 AM


Of course, you engage in Confirmation bias again, because you ignore the centuries of endorsed violent treatment of non-Christians by Christians.

You also ignore the terribly violent Old Testament.

You ignore the fact that both Christianity and Islam have their roots in Judaism, which the Old Testament shows us was a very, very warlike, "kill-em-if-they-don't-believe" culture.

1. I haven't ignored any of these atol. I've repeated over and over in these forums, the fact that nowhere in the entire Bible are Christians given the permission or advice to persecute or kill anyone and those who do so are disobeying the fundamentals of the Bible concerning what is allowed for Christians. I've also explained that any OT God sanctioned killing was disignated to a specific nation for a specific purpose in a specific time in history so as to establish a kingdom of God on earth, some day to be headed by a messianic king over the whole planet. Thus the restoration of the nation of Israel in our time for that purpose.

2. According to the latter chapters of Revelation, the kingdom of evil which involves Satan and his demons which we are discussing here in this thread will be totally suppressed for a full millenium of messianic world rule, effecting upon earth a utopia of peace, health with long life and prosperity. This is also prophesied by several OT prophets.

3. For some reason, known only to God, the prophet John in Revelation 20 states that these evil entities will again be allowed a short time of respite upon earth before they are cast into the eternal lake of fire to be tormented forever and the earth will be burned up and melt. A new heaven and earth void of evil will then be created with the redeemed of earth residing in what is called the NEW JERUSALEM where the streets of gold, pearly gates and river of life will exist for eternity beyond.

4. This all indicates that likely this earth was made to effect the demise of evil in the universe and we humans are caught up in the warfare between good and evil in the universe. Our only hope in this dilema is that which God has devised for us, via redemption through the propitiatory or substitutional sacrifical death of the God given sacrificial lamb, Jesus, the only born son of God who died in our place that we might receive eternal life as the justice of God has been satisfied.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by nator, posted 01-11-2004 8:03 AM nator has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Silent H, posted 01-18-2004 11:22 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 3408 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 191 of 225 (79338)
01-18-2004 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Buzsaw
01-18-2004 9:30 PM


quote:
1. ... I've also explained that any OT God sanctioned killing was disignated to a specific nation for a specific purpose in a specific time in history so as to establish a kingdom of God on earth, some day to be headed by a messianic king over the whole planet. Thus the restoration of the nation of Israel in our time for that purpose.

And this is different from other nations killing to establish their kingdom, or their Gods' kingdom on earth, how? This reads exactly like your claims of why we should be fearing Islam in your other thread.

quote:
2... effecting upon earth a utopia of peace, health with long life and prosperity. This is also prophesied by several OT prophets.

And this is different from Islamic promises of a utopia on earth, how?

quote:
3... A new heaven and earth void of evil will then be created with the redeemed of earth residing in what is called the NEW JERUSALEM where the streets of gold, pearly gates and river of life will exist for eternity beyond.

This is different from Islamic visions of paradise, and so motivation to support the Islamic cause, how?

quote:
4. This all indicates that likely this earth was made to effect the demise of evil in the universe and we humans are caught up in the warfare between good and evil in the universe.

This is not what Genesis says AT ALL. If you can decide not to read Genesis literally with regard to purpose, then why not to method?

What I find interesting is that the Fakir who did not eat or drink (the original topic of this thread) was not advocating death or destruction leading to an ultimate utopia, yet you call him demon possessed. How can you read your own words regarding the death, suffering, and destruction your God has supposedly planned for earth, and not wonder if maybe you are being seduced by a demon?


holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Buzsaw, posted 01-18-2004 9:30 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
badandigood
Inactive Member


Message 192 of 225 (80416)
01-23-2004 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Phat
12-30-2003 1:00 PM


Re: a personal encounter with the supernatural
so you talked to your friend about this incident later and what did he say? was he concious this was happening? very interested in hearing about this.


in your mirror you will find the eye of the Divine
This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 12-30-2003 1:00 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
badandigood
Inactive Member


Message 193 of 225 (80418)
01-23-2004 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Stephen ben Yeshua
01-02-2004 2:31 PM


Re: a personal encounter with the supernatural
You will also need to "receive the love of the truth"

What exactly do you mean by this?


in your mirror you will find the eye of the Divine
This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-02-2004 2:31 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 03-12-2004 1:25 AM badandigood has responded

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 194 of 225 (81059)
01-27-2004 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by nator
01-14-2004 7:28 AM


Re: The Evil Power of Supernatural Inventions
Schrafinator,

I just learned that checking the replies await part of my username misses double replies, and this interesting set of comments by you has been neglected. Sorry.

Now, we are discussing the term "evil" which is a part of our language and history, and wondering whether science can be used to help us deal with the evil around us. You ask for a scientific definition of the word, which I gave, because I find science useful, and hope that it's power can help us in every part of life. Anyway, you ask,

So, was the extinction of the dinosaurs "evil"?

By the definition I gave, it was to them, certainly while it was going on, while the beasts were dying, suffering, failing to find mates, or food, or warmth. While their W was very low.

But it is possible that dinosaurs were artificially selected creatures, created by Satan in rebellion to God. So, He sent a meterorite to kill them. To God, in this scenario, the extinction of the dinosaurs was not evil to Him. We do not think it evil to swat fly, but the fly might think so.

All the Biologists over the last 100 years are under demonic influence?

If the hypothesis of demon existence is true, then everyone, everywhere is always under some degree of demonic influence, to varying degrees. Just as all earthworms in my yard are all under the influence, to some degree, of the robins that they cannot see, smell, or hear, but which prey on them.

The evolution of bacteria we can observe in a petri dish is also demonic?

What you can observe is some bacteria with an identifiable genotype having a higher W than others. But, how do you separate out natural and artificial selection? How do you distinquish such selection as being carried out by a demon, with the agenda of producing a disease for humans? By God, with the agenda of producing a microbe that will allow asphalt to recycle? By humans, hoping to produce a different cheese? Natural selection poses a nice null hypothesis, but other things could be going on. So, Dossey reports prayer experiments on changes in such situations, with interesting results. It's a beginning.

Bald religiously-based assumption.

If we are going to do H-D research on religious ontological ideas, we have to begin with their assumptions, understanding how they are supposing things are.

Do you accuse everyone who disagrees with you of demonic influence, or only those who ask you questions you can't seem to answer?

Only noting that under this ontology, anyone not making an effort to resist demons is apt to influenced by them. As the hypothesized ontology gets more and more confirmed, the likelihood of this being the case with you or anyone gets higher and higher. Hence, the moral responsibility to warn our neighbors of a danger they might be in, but are unaware of.

Or I'm glad we both don't live in Salem back when folks there got a little crazy.

Back then, I suppose those folks felt about what they were doing the way the Germans felt about what they were doing to the Jews in the 1930's, or as we feel today about abortion. Lots of death. Have you ever seen the film, the Silent Scream?

Define "enlightened" in a scientific sense, please.

IQ?

Now, we had a discussion about unsupported assumptions. It was my reply to some you seemed to me to be making. They are not encouraged here, so I felt no need to embarrass you by responding. But you insist,

Stephen: The beauty of science is that supernatural inventions, or models, can be shown implausible through proper testing.

Schrafinator: Um, no they can't.

The supernatural can't be shown to be anything at all by science.
Science copmpletely ignores the supernatural.

Science is use of naturalistic explanations for natural phenomena.

Your comments are unsupported. There is a very rich literature out there on H-D science as it explores the Noetic or supernatural.

By that definition, just about everything is, or could be, evil, including God.

I suppose that the devil might think God is evil, but since God is above the devil in IQ, or intelligence and power, He gets the final say.

As to my theological notions about Satan is up to, or how he works, hypothetically, I mostly extend my experience with human "evil" agents and how they work. Intelligence agents subterfuging in an enemy nation, for example.

Remember, I am not interested in trying to win a debate with you over this, only alert you to a danger you might be in, and encourage you to choose to study both the epistemology and the ontology of the matter. Get the truth before the truth gets you.

Stephen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by nator, posted 01-14-2004 7:28 AM nator has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2231 days)
Posts: 12961
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 195 of 225 (91936)
03-11-2004 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Buzsaw
01-18-2004 8:30 PM


Re: The Evil Power of Supernatural Inventions
[quote]Science copmpletely ignores the supernatural.[quote]

quote:
Yes, we know, like the proverbial ostridge with head securely buried in the sand.

No, as many of us have told you over and over and over again, for YEARS, yet you refuse to learn:

science ignores the supernatural in the same way that professional baseball players ignore bobsled racing.

Professional baseball players, in order to properly play the game of baseball by the rules, ignore bobsledding.

You want to call all of the baseball players, the coaches, the managers, the owners, and the comissioner a bunch of ostriches with their heads in the sand because, while they are playing, coaching, managing, and administering the sport of professional baseball, they REFUSE to apply the rules of baseball to bobsled racing!

Why should they, Buz? What possible sense does it make?


I want to date, and shop, and hang out, and go to school, and save the world from unspeakable demons. You know...girly things." -Buffy
This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Buzsaw, posted 01-18-2004 8:30 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
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