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Author Topic:   The Power/Reality Of Demons And Supernatural Evil.
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 196 of 225 (91991)
03-12-2004 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by badandigood
01-23-2004 11:20 PM


Re: a personal encounter with the supernatural
badandigood,

Sorry to be so late with this reply. Totally missed your post. Sorry.

You asked,

You will also need to "receive the love of the truth"

Go to the person you know personally who you most trust to teach you. Ask them this question: "Teach me the rules or laws governing how we know whether a given statement is true or not. I am especially interested in learning the rules set out by the God, Jehovah, in the scriptures. But, it is very important that I learn not only what those rules are, but am trained in how they are applied."

Example rule: "Truth is beauty, and beauty truth."

Example rule from scripture: "If anyone thinks he knows something, he doesn't yet know anything as he ought to."

But you need to "receive" this, which means have someone teach you, personally.

If there is a God in heaven, I guarentee that you will not live unless you do this.

Stephen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by badandigood, posted 01-23-2004 11:20 PM badandigood has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by badandigood, posted 03-18-2004 11:21 AM Stephen ben Yeshua has not yet responded

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 197 of 225 (91996)
03-12-2004 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Phat
01-06-2004 12:58 AM


Re: Moby Dick
phatboy,

Just found this post. You ponder,

Why would such coding exist, unless God or some superior intelligence knew that it would take humanities own bright minds to sift through the information and literature to find the codes and decipher them. Perhaps we could deduce that some form of superior intelligence is giving some elaborate puzzle problems to some of the bright minds on earth. Maybe this superior intelligence knew just what "Bait" was needed to hook their interest.

There have not been, in the history of the world, times as spiritually interesting as these times. My pastor is an historian, with an extensive library that he makes me read through. We are at a unigue time in history, historically. Not especially prophetically. That's not what I'm talking about. But in the history of how people have dealt spiritually with the scriptures and their message. I'm not 100% sure I understand why the ELS's have appeared now, although Satinover's hypothesis makes some sense. But they have, and at the very least, they confirm my own sense that we are called to spiritual action, responses to the scriptures, in ways that have never happened before and been documented.

Prepare the way of the Lord, and get ready to something entirely new, different from anything you have ever heard of. Something biblical.

Stephen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Phat, posted 01-06-2004 12:58 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Gilgamesh, posted 03-12-2004 2:25 AM Stephen ben Yeshua has responded

  
Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 198 of 225 (92012)
03-12-2004 2:25 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by Stephen ben Yeshua
03-12-2004 1:39 AM


Re: Moby Dick
Oh dear God noooooooo.

I thought we had dealt with this Bible code nonsense in another thread??

It is things like Bible Codes and Creationism and the lies, deciet, deliberately misleading logic that underlies them that demonstrates what underlies Christian thinking: false and mistaken hope.

Stephen, why don't you put your usual prayer claims to the test? Want to play guess the number?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 03-12-2004 1:39 AM Stephen ben Yeshua has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 03-12-2004 3:06 AM Gilgamesh has not yet responded

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 199 of 225 (92023)
03-12-2004 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by Gilgamesh
03-12-2004 2:25 AM


Re: Moby Dick
hey, Gil,

Sorry, I had forgotten to even keep asking about your number. You know how it is with prayer. You have to ask and keep on asking.

I know it is your opinion that the codes are nonsense, and it is mine that they are a response from God to the fact that we are at war with demons. The very existance of codes, which I believe has been affirmed by legitimate science beyond reasonable doubt, is evidence of this war. Their main value is to assure the transmittal of the surface text of the bible, in the face of enemy (demonic) disruption and deception.

Because you, evidently, make no provision to reject demonic influence in your own thinking, while I agree with the masses of humanity that demons make people think ineffectively, I naturally am unpersuaded by your opinion per se. Nor by that of the code critics, who are only arguing anyway that those who defend codes are fooling themselves. Granted, fooling yourself is a potential problem, but it is as likely to be a problem for the critics as the defenders. And, so far, the defenders have shown more intellectual integrity.

Getting you to agree with me about this, would be like getting an old-timey hat-maker to agree that mercury was bad stuff to work with. The hatter is already quite mad because of the mercury, and so unable to get the argument. I say, "take lots of vitamin C, to get rid of your mercury, and you will be able to understand the point." But the hatter is too far gone, pity.

Now, Lord, Gil has a number in mind, and wants me to guess it, as a test of "prayer." What do You want to say about this?

What's that? If I could hear well enough to get numbers from You, I should ask for the lottery? Hmmmm. But, what about Gil? Would that convince him? .... When Gil does the experiment You proposed, then you will consider doing the one he proposes.

Now, Gil, it's late, and He's not in a very good mood. Perhaps if I ask later.

Cheers,

Stephen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Gilgamesh, posted 03-12-2004 2:25 AM Gilgamesh has not yet responded

  
badandigood
Inactive Member


Message 200 of 225 (93135)
03-18-2004 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by Stephen ben Yeshua
03-12-2004 1:25 AM


Re: a personal encounter with the supernatural
thank you


in your mirror you will find the eye of the Divine
This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 03-12-2004 1:25 AM Stephen ben Yeshua has not yet responded

  
UV2003
Inactive Member


Message 201 of 225 (98892)
04-09-2004 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Coragyps
12-28-2003 7:40 PM


exactly
Coragyps,
This is exactly why I don't believe in supernatural demons. Take a look at this article:

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvbid/plague/history.htm

"The disease was believed to be delivered upon the people by the displeasure of the gods, by other supernatural powers or, by heavenly disturbance. Innocent groups of people were blamed for spreading plague and were persecuted by the panicked masses."

I know of exactly zero studies at the CDC that investigate demonic forces being responsible for illnesses. Exactly zero.

Why should I believe that a _supernatural being_ cannot completely overpower the chemical constituents of brain chemistry? This is beyond comprehensible to my mind. I have known people who were put through so much nonsense because a church wanted them to have demons exorcised when their doctors said, "No, this person has a problem with their brain chemistry."

And, here is another absurdity of various theologies regarding Satan and the demons. We are told that they are all about glory, and in the past they manifested physical phenomena in the world, such as the video on http://www.milkmiracle.com, or other things.

A pastor told me that the reason I should believe that Many Saints came back from the dead and were Seen By Many in Matthew 27:52 despite no secular historical accounts of this is that God can do anything. His reasoning for not outright _disbelieving_ in miracles in other religions was that Demon Activity is responsible.

Ok, then let's go with that theology. Given that logic, why do the demons not get on CNN and multiply food in the name of a false God? Does God not allow it? If so, why does he allow all these fundamentalists to see demonic activity over there or just around the corner, but they can never present video evidence of something like demons being cast out of a man and tossed into a herd of swine?

Something is just not right with this picture.

Why does Satan not possess someone or Many People on TV and make they pay homage to Osama bin Laden, then have them kill themselves and then manifest a puff of smoke that exits their nostrils and ascends, showing the soul "going up" to heaven?

Well, obviously, God has his angels guarding against such infestations of the demon forces. This is certainly the most parsimonious explanation since we _know_ via scripture that demons exist, right? God is orchestrating legions of demons such that they never perform physically irrefutable satanic miracles on television the likes of which would leave no doubt of the supernatural.

The next rebuttal is that demons are only allowed to _influence_ behavior, not force behavior. Ok, fine, then do demons only do this in those who do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling? And do fundamentalist nuts that kill people have the holy spirit or just _think_ they do? What is the discerning factor in determining whether someone _really_ has the spirit?

Christians like to say that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". Well, is "presence of evidence evidence of presence?" So, present the evidence. Get Satan and the demons on CNN, tonight, and have them regrow a severed hand in the name of Osama bin Laden. This would draw _max_ glory away from Jesus Christ, the True Lord and Savior, would it not? I guess that won't happen though, because God won't allow it and the angels are battling against it. God only lets Satan go so far as to influence actions, like directing jets into twin towers and then manifesting puffs of smoke in the likeness of Lucifer.

What about the Muslims? Their holy book is The Truth too. Al Shaitaan is a bit different for them. He loved God too much and would not prostrate before Adam: http://www.understanding-islam.org/related/text.asp?type=question&qid=291

Let's face facts: nobody believes in the same God. No two people anywhere have ever believed in the same God. Whatever your conception of God is, it is not the same as mine or anybody elses by virture of the imprints within our brains. Whatever this universe is, it exists independent of us, but our conceptions are how we understand it. The scientific method has helped weed out charlatanism and superstitionism and while it may never ultimately describe the exact nature of the universe, I think it fully reasonable to believe that the theology of demons and satan is ludicrous, unless you want to let those people in Africa believe that the gods are really angry at them and that is why they get disease.

-UV


What about Goblins, huh? Doesn't anybody believe in Goblins?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Coragyps, posted 12-28-2003 7:40 PM Coragyps has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by kofh2u, posted 04-09-2004 1:51 PM UV2003 has responded

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1204 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 202 of 225 (98922)
04-09-2004 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by UV2003
04-09-2004 10:57 AM


semantics?
Much of your criticism is well founded.

However, the semantics get in the way. Evil and good both exist within us, in our intentions, and in society as consequental to collective actions.

I see "Satan" evrywhere in America as does the Mulim. But, we both recognize Satan by the same evidence titled with semantical differences.

Satan that I see is sexual excess and obsession. I see it in the amusement offered in movies and TV. I see it selling legitimate commercial products and services. I see Satan being seduced by the Devil. The Devil is clearly recognized in America as "she" was in Isreal long ago.

Isa. 3:16- Moreover the LORD saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet:
Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the LORD will discover their secret parts. In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon, The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers,
The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings, The rings, and nose jewels, The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins, The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the veils.

Within us, in our psyche, there are seven evil spirits. Freud brought them to our attention, but we have forgotten them and continus to look for the evil in ourselves as if we are religiously ANIMISTIC.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by UV2003, posted 04-09-2004 10:57 AM UV2003 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by UV2003, posted 04-09-2004 2:01 PM kofh2u has responded

    
UV2003
Inactive Member


Message 203 of 225 (98926)
04-09-2004 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by kofh2u
04-09-2004 1:51 PM


Re: semantics?
Yes, I agree it's within. I do not believe there are beings outside orchestrating chemical imbalances in people's brains or causing people in Africa to become sick. In my opinion, "Satan" is a personification of evil caused by self-deluded egotism and unwillingness to accept personal responsibility.

But, so long as the populaces at large do not see the figurative underlying meaning of these things, there will always be fanatical leaders who can rally people against another people, touting something like, "My god can beat up your god." Christ versus Allah, the sequel.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by kofh2u, posted 04-09-2004 1:51 PM kofh2u has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by kofh2u, posted 04-10-2004 1:31 AM UV2003 has not yet responded

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1204 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 204 of 225 (99046)
04-10-2004 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by UV2003
04-09-2004 2:01 PM


Exactly right!
The religious leaders today want it both ways.

1) They want to open the church to psychological counseling,

2) while they ignor the secular truth behind scriptures' teachings, using the "spiritualism" and animism in the mind of people to bring them into the fold.

They ignor the truth of Freud in deferring to external causes and evil possessions when the problem lies in the excessive reliance and exercise of one or another of the psychic archetypal sources of their behavior!
THE SEVEN EVILSPIRITS IN BOOK OF MATTHEW:

Satan = Libido = physical urges and drives

Lucifer = Id = The Pleasyre Principle

Baalzebub = Self = The Reality Principle

Mammon = Ego - The Aggressive Drive

False Prophet = Superego = Logical/mathematical thinking

False Shepherd = Sense of psychic balance = Harmony Principle

Devil = Anima/animus = The Feminine Principle

And, of course,
The Holy Spirit = Conscience = Interpersonal Integrity

Rev. 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars (the sevenfold angels of the psyche: Id, Libido, Ego, Anima, Self, Harmony, Superego): and out of his mouth went a two-edged sword (cutting both secular and theological wisdom): and his countenance was as the sun (of rationality) shineth in his strength (of factual knowledge).


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 205 of 225 (99047)
04-10-2004 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by kofh2u
04-10-2004 1:31 AM


Devil = Anima/animus = The Feminine Principle

The what?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by kofh2u, posted 04-10-2004 1:31 AM kofh2u has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by kofh2u, posted 04-10-2004 2:47 AM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1204 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 206 of 225 (99052)
04-10-2004 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by crashfrog
04-10-2004 1:42 AM


The devil you say...
The source of human Intuition seems to eminate from a psychic source which Carl Jung called the Anima. This word is Latin for mind of women. It translates in the Greek to Psyke'. The English word for this term is "soul."

Dr Tessa Warshaw in her best seller, "How to negotiate," calls this mental thinking source "Big Momma."

Carl Jung based a large portion of his Jungian Pschology on understanding this psychic apparatus.

But I believe the ancients summed up the one side
of this archetypal human thinking sources found in men and women as the Devil.

Rev. 17:2 With whom (the political powers), the kings of the earth, have committed (themselves to a sexually misdirected economic system of) fornications, and the inhabitants of the earth (in Western society) have been made drunk (and hedonistic) with the wine of her (porno-sexual exploitation of) fornications.


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Replies to this message:
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UV2003
Inactive Member


Message 207 of 225 (99387)
04-12-2004 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by kofh2u
04-10-2004 2:47 AM


Re: The devil you say...
Interesting ideas! I don't think human nature has changed all that much despite all the technology and books and writings. Maybe we describe it in different ways today, but the basic ideas that people have always tried to wrestle with are still there. This 7 business reminds of another ancient idea, the 7 chakras, but I don't really remember much about them other than some of them being "base" and animalistic while the others were more human and higher-thinking.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by kofh2u, posted 04-10-2004 2:47 AM kofh2u has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by kofh2u, posted 04-12-2004 2:02 PM UV2003 has not yet responded

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1204 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 208 of 225 (99436)
04-12-2004 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by UV2003
04-12-2004 10:15 AM


Re: The devil you say...
Hi,
Yes, the ancient, ancient Seven Chakras.
That psychic mood has seven states, as this Eastern mysticism tells us, and in that it has found enough experiental support through thosands of years, is rathering collaterating with both Freudian/Jungian Psychology of the most recent observations in our times.

Both find strong confirmation in the Function Color Psychology of Dr. Max Luscher.

Using seven or eight colors, a very effect analysis is obtained. Luscher's work is very much applied and esteemed in Europe. Corporations like Volkswagon use it in Consumer Preference Analysis and others in Human Resources.

That psychology finds analogy in the Christian scriptures seems a twoedged sword benefiting both disciplines while, perhaps, cutting the "priesthoods" in each with its insight.
That the BELIEFS of religion can be supported in what we KNOW from psychology seems as powerfu,l in that, what we KNOW about Freudian and Jungian psychology can be more effectively utilized by people BELIEVING in it. True?

Quote from the Freudian Bible Translation:

Rev. 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars (the sevenfold angels of the psyche: Id, Libido, Ego, Anima, Self, Harmony, Superego): and out of his mouth went a two-edged sword (cutting both secular and theological wisdom): and his countenance was as the sun (of rationality) shineth in his strength (of factual knowledge).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by UV2003, posted 04-12-2004 10:15 AM UV2003 has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 209 of 225 (723785)
04-08-2014 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Phat
12-30-2003 1:00 PM


Re: a personal encounter with the supernatural
quote:
About five years ago, I and my friends were active in fellowship and communion with other Christian Believers. We were praying together in agreement, and we were becoming at peace with our relationships to each other, the world in general, and God as we knew Him. One night, I was asleep. My roomie came home with two friends. At 2 a.m. they were praying in the other room. I then heard a commotion and shouting! I observed that an electrical feeling was present in the air and that my hair on my arms was standing on end. I also became very restless and an inner unction to pray was felt.
Afterward, going out to see what the commotion was, I saw one of the guys with deep blood red eyes biting himself and emitting deep growls.
Several explanations came to my mind for why this was happening.
1) Bad acid.
2) Trying to get attention
3) mentally ill. Or...my last explanation? Perhaps supernatural.
Mind you, I was still a skeptic. One of the others spoke to him and said that "we plead the blood of Jesus over you!" Out of this guy came what may have been several different voices at once. There were no tricks. No wires. I am certain of the authenticity of this moment.
These voices cryed out "The Blood! No! No!" Now I know that you all think that I was fooled, and I cannot claim that I wanted to believe that this was true at that time either. I WAS scared! Scared because I felt not in control. Yet I knew that what I heard was a real event and it sounded very otherworldly! Everyone was genuinely shook up. This was one event among several in my life that has caused me to wonder about the supernatural and the possibilities of such as reality.

Should I dismiss this past event as a mistake in perception, only because evidence is lacking?


“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—nothing more nor less.”

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by Stile, posted 04-08-2014 2:15 PM Phat has responded
 Message 211 by AZPaul3, posted 04-08-2014 11:52 PM Phat has responded
 Message 216 by Larni, posted 04-09-2014 5:56 PM Phat has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 2859
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 210 of 225 (723788)
04-08-2014 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Phat
04-08-2014 1:16 PM


Re: a personal encounter with the supernatural
Phat writes:

Should I dismiss this past event as a mistake in perception, only because evidence is lacking?

Your choice of words is interesting.
Why "dismiss" the event at all?

Why not "accept" the event as a mistake in perception, only because evidence is lacking?

Personally, I would take what I knew about the event and compare it with what I knew about reality.
If it made sense and fit in... I would think the event to be "normal."
If it doesn't make sense and fit in... I would think the event to be similar to a whole bunch of other things that don't make sense or fit in to me... things I don't know much about.

There's no reason to dismiss any event because evidence is lacking.

What we do know, though... is that it's foolish to cling to a personally preferred explanation for an event when evidence is lacking.

Have you never not understood anything else before?
And then you learn how it was done and have an "ooohhhh... I see now..." moment?
What makes you think it's impossible for such a thing to happen for this event?

It sounds to me like you're just in the first stage... you currently do not understand the event.
You simply haven't reached the second stage... learning how it was done.

That's not a reason to start creating replacements for how it was done out of thin air...
Knowing that you'll likely never get to "learn how it was done" is not a reason to go along with imaginary answers either...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Phat, posted 04-08-2014 1:16 PM Phat has responded

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