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Author Topic:   I Am Not An Atheist!
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 174 of 382 (498163)
02-08-2009 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by ICANT
02-07-2009 12:25 PM


ICANT writes:
quote:
So what damage do I do if I tell them God loves them and His only begotten son died for them and if they would believe in Him that He would give them a wonderful life with Him in a place called heaven one day?
Now if I am wrong and there is no God, Jesus, heaven or lake of fire and they live a happy, fulfilled, contented life helping all those they can and harming no one along the way.
When they die they are buried and then nothing.
Please explain the damage I have caused to them.
Be specific.
BZZZZT!
Pascal's Wager. I'm so sorry, ICANT. Johnny, tell him what parting gifts he has!
Well, Bob, ICANT has won himself a lifetime of anguish in someone else's hell! Yes, that's right. After spending all of his life fighting against Satan and worshipping the Christian god, ICANT gets a reward of going straight to Hades for his hubris. He'll be sentenced to solve a series of puzzles for which the instructions can be read in many ways. Every attempt to glean more information will be met with "Since it would just be a waste of my time to tell you, I won't." Of course, every proposed solution will conflict with something in the contradictory instructions. This being for his continued insistence that those around him are unworthy of explanations.
But, he won't get hungry because he'll have an afterlife-time supply of Rice-a-Roni®, the San Francisco Treat.
You didn't really think that the god that truly exists was the Christian one, did you? What damage do you do? You condemn them to enternal damnation and suffering for believing in the wrong god.
quote:
If you are wrong when you tell your children there is no God, Jesus, heaven or lake of fire and they live a happy, fulfilled, contented life helping all those they can and harming no one along the way.
When they die they find themselves facing Jesus and He says to them depart ye into everlasting punishment I never knew you.
BZZZZT!
Pascal's Wager again! I'm so sorry, ICANT. You seem to think that you know the mind of god and Jesus and are capable of speaking for them regarding how they will react to those who do not believe.
Hint: Jesus directly stated that salvation is through works, not faith. It is Paul who claimed it was via faith, not works.
Who do you think better knows the mind of Jesus: Jesus or Paul?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by ICANT, posted 02-07-2009 12:25 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 181 of 382 (498178)
02-08-2009 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Percy
02-08-2009 8:08 PM


Percy writes:
quote:
Here's the operative definition from yourdictionary.com:
Argumentum ad dictionary? Surely you know better than that.
I do notice that there has been considerable substitution of the words "supernatural being" and "god," which I think is causing some of the confusion. God may be a supernatural being, but not all supernatural beings are gods.
I don't see any particular problem with the idea that the devil, a supernatural being, is not quite on the same level as god, also a supernatural being. Not in the question of good/evil, but in the question of power. For example, one theology concept states that the devil only has the power you give him. God, on the other hand, can act despite you.
I'm not saying that any particular person on this board ascribes to it, but the concept of the devil not being "a god" doesn't bother me in and of itself.
Of course, this means we need to see if the person claiming that the devil isn't "a god" is treating the devil differently than god for a difference that makes no difference is no difference.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Percy, posted 02-08-2009 8:08 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 183 of 382 (498180)
02-08-2009 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Buzsaw
02-08-2009 8:57 PM


Buzsaw writes:
quote:
Can you support this with some links or other evidence, that Christians, by and large, believe in Satan as a god?
I believe Percy is doing the "looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck" method of reasoning. And, indeed, it makes sense: If Christians treat the devil as having qualities X, Y, and Z which we normally attribute to gods, then it necessarily follows that the devil is a god, no matter how much Christians would like to devalue the power of the devil. A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
Theists often have a hard time with evil as a primal force the way they do for good. They want a sort of "separate but equal" attitude about it so that they can have their focus of good triumph over it. This is one of the unique facets of Scandanavian theology: The bad guys win.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Buzsaw, posted 02-08-2009 8:57 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Buzsaw, posted 02-09-2009 9:03 AM Rrhain has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 252 of 382 (498810)
02-14-2009 4:30 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by Buzsaw
02-09-2009 9:03 AM


Buzsaw responds to me:
quote:
As per my message 190 perhaps you would evaluate my comments in that message as to why I think it does not make sense that god who claims the status of the one and only god created other gods. That is just not what the Bible teaches or what Christians, by and large believe.
Because they are stuck in a contradictory theology. They ascribe traits to the devil that we would normally ascribe to a "god." But because they have also insisted that their "god" is all-powerful and with dominion over the devil, they then have to deny that this other entity is legitimate.
Now, I'm all for allowing people of a certain theological/philosophical viewpoint define the words that describe themselves. For example, atheists claim they do not have religion, that is a lack of belief, not a belief in lack, and I can respect that. And I certainly respect the claim of many Christians that god and the devil are different (though there are some that claim that god is actually an evil being and still others that claim that god and the devil are the same), but there needs to be consistency. To grant the devil all that power and then claim that no, it isn't real is to be inconsistent.
To use a pedestrian analogy, it's kinda like the problem in Nightmare on Elm Street: In the original movie, the heroine lives because she learns that Freddy only has what power you give him. Refuse to give him anything, and he is powerless...
...except that they immediately contradict that in the final scene and never bring it up again in any of the sequels.
You don't get to have it both ways: Freddy cannot be this amazingly powerful menace that is independent of you while at the same time being only capable of acting at your demand.
The devil cannot be this powerful menace that is independent of god while at the same time being only capable of acting at his demand.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Buzsaw, posted 02-09-2009 9:03 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Buzsaw, posted 02-14-2009 9:04 AM Rrhain has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 254 of 382 (498950)
02-15-2009 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Buzsaw
02-14-2009 9:04 AM


Buzsaw responds to me:
quote:
Rrhain, your whole argument is analogous to the United States having multiple presidents since the Speaker of the House and the Senate Majority Leader wield considerable power over the people of this nation.
Huh? Not at all. Does the phrase, "separation of powers" mean anything to you? We have only one President, but he is not in charge of everything. There are two other, co-equal branches that are independent of and can easily overrule the President.
Congress can override presidential veto.
The President is Commander-in-Chief, but he doesn't get to declare war. That's a power strictly reserved to Congress.
The President nominates judges, but they have to go through the Senate to actually get the job.
quote:
Then perhaps there are nine additional presidents who we erroneously call Chief Justices of the Supreme Court.
Incorrect. First, there is only one Chief Justice. Second, they are not Presidents. They are Judges. Take legislation. If the Congress passes a bill, the President can veto it if he doesn't like it. Congress can then override the veto. If it comes before the Supreme Court, they do not have the ability to strike it down simply because they don't like it the way the President can. The only power they have is to compare it against the Constitution and see if it flies. If it doesn't, then it gets invalidated.
That isn't Presidential power. That's Judicial power.
That's why it's called "separation of powers." Each branch is co-equal to the other and has certain abilities that the others simply do not have. This is the failure of the Bush/Cheney (which actually has some birth in Cheney's daughter...no, not Mary, the other one...bonus points if you can remember her name) of the "unitary executive." The President does not have unlimited power. Many of the things that the President may wish to do are not part of his job description. Instead, they are with the other branches. The President cannot suspend habeaus corpus, for example, not even in a time of war. Only Congress can do that. Lincoln tried and got slapped down. He then asked Congress to do so and they complied.
This is the conflict in Christian theology: They want there to be both a separation and a dominion of powers. They need the devil to be independent of god and yet somehow controlled by god at the same time. How could evil be sourced in god, who is only good? Ah, evil comes from the devil, ergo, the devil is independent of god.
But that means the devil just might win! We can't have that...only god can win in the end, therefore the devil is somehow constrained and controlled by god. But that means the devil isn't independent of god and thus the merry-go-round spins again.
quote:
The rightful concept of the Biblical god, Jehovah, must come from the Bible and not from different strokes for different folks.
But surely you agree that different people have very different understandings of what the Bible says, do you not? If everybody agreed, why aren't we all Orthodox?
quote:
That concept clearly is mono-theistic, all other claims to that status being false.
Then why is there the devil? How can he have any power of any kind at all? He is ascribed powers and abilities that we clearly define as "god-like." Thus, he would qualify as "a god." But you immediately fall for exactly what it is that I described: A need to delegitimize the devil.
quote:
The Biblical teaching is also that one god created and ultimately manages all that exists. Therefore why should that god purposely create other gods?
Why not? God works in mysterious ways and all that. If god "created and ultimately manages all that exists," why is there a devil in the first place?
Hint: Judaism didn't have a devil at the beginning of the Torah.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Buzsaw, posted 02-14-2009 9:04 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Buzsaw, posted 02-17-2009 8:52 PM Rrhain has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 261 of 382 (499836)
02-21-2009 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by Buzsaw
02-17-2009 8:52 PM


Buzsaw responds to me:
quote:
By the same token, do the terms, creature and creator mean anything to you?
What does that have to do with anything? Why does the fact that one thing "created" the other mean it is somehow "less"? See, we're back to the claim I made at the beginning: After giving the devil "god-like" significance, you are stuck in having to denigrate the very being you have made so powerful. Either the devil is as powerful as you make him out to be or he isn't. Which is it?
quote:
We have only one god who designates powers to his creatues.
So does the devil have power or not? You're the one saying that god has no need to create other gods, and yet there is this other character, the devil, who seemingly gives god a run for his money in the power department. And once establishing that fact, you then deny it. You don't get to have it both ways. Either the devil is as powerful as you make him out to be or he isn't. Which is it?
quote:
The president presides over the nation. God presides over the universe.
The President is not supreme. And from the way the devil is described, neither is god. Either the devil is as powerful as you make him out to be or he isn't. Which is it?
quote:
That every aspect of the analogy does not match is irrelevant. The analogy supports my point, nevertheless.
Incorrect. Your analogy doesn't even begin to describe what you are trying to say. The President does not have total power. It is shared by two other, co-equal branches. The way the devil is described, he is an independent, "god-like" being. But because you cannot allow evil to win, you immediately denigrate the very power you have granted unto the devil. Either the devil is as powerful as you make him out to be or he isn't. Which is it?
quote:
If the devil wins, the creature overpowers the maker, which is impossible according to the Biblical record.
This is just as I said: Upon giving evil all this power, you immediately recoil from it and denigrate what you just established. You don't get to have it both ways. Either the devil is as powerful as you make him out to be or he isn't. Which is it?
quote:
Biblical prophecy which never fails prophesies the eventual demise of the devil and states that he knows his fate.
Ignoring the fallacious claim that biblical prophecy has actually never succeeded, you are only digging your hole deeper: After describing the devil as this powerful being, you immediately claim that he can't possibly be that way. Either the devil is as powerful as you make him out to be or he isn't. Which is it?
quote:
quote:
But surely you agree that different people have very different understandings of what the Bible says, do you not? If everybody agreed, why aren't we all Orthodox?
LOL. There's so many emphatic Biblical texts establishing monotheism that anyone who tries to claim the Bible is polytheist is obviously ignorant of the Biblical record.
Then clearly the Gnostics don't understand their own religion. And you are confusing the "monotheism" of later passages of the Bible indicating there is only one god anywhere to be found with the "monotheism" of the earlier passages of the Bible indicating that the Jews are to only worship Jehovah but that there are other gods out there (Baal, for example).
At any rate, you haven't answered my question: If everybody agreed, why aren't we all Orthodox?
quote:
God creates creatures of free will.
That doesn't answer the question. Either the devil is as powerful as you make him out to be or he isn't. Which is it?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Buzsaw, posted 02-17-2009 8:52 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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