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| Author | Topic: God's Day 1 Billion Years? | |||||||||||||||||||
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Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3624 days)  Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
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Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3624 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
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Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3624 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
arachnophilia:
genesis is not a poetic book. genesis was not written to be artistic. Irrelevant. The Genesis narratives are very artfully written. Whether or not they were written primarily for 'artistic purposes.' Metaphorical meanings appear in all kinds of writing. The essence of a meataphor is to use an image 'as if.' We talk about one thing as if it was another. Often metaphors describe something less concrete--less tangible to the five senses--as if it was more so. Genesis 1 describes creation just this way. Everything is told on as as if basis. The narrative discusses the origin of the natural world as if an artisan went to work on a week-long creative project. The origin of the universe is a vast subject. Yet by means of this image the writer makes sure that everyone who has ever worked on such a project can get the idea. The telling remains 'as if,' though. because the artisan isn't human. The artisan is God. Instead of making a rug or an anvil he makes a universe. Instead of working with human- sized quantities of material and time, he works with God-sized quantities of everything. God's Creation Week spent working on a universe will necessarily be a very different thing, in quantity and quality, than a human week spent in a workshop making a rug. There's a vast difference in scale. It's built in. It's a common but mistaken assumption that metaphors--literary images--are a feature only of poetry or 'artistic' writing. Not so. 'As if' images appear wherever language is used. They appear in all genres, even today's scientific documents. 'Black hole' is such an image. 'Big Bang' is such an image. How poetic are physicists trying to be when they use these expressions? In each case a term's literal dictionary definition has been stretched to express a more complex and less literal (by the dictionary) idea. It is especially useful to use words in this way when one is trying to convey abstract, elusive, or sublime ideas. One such moment might be when a physicist tries to describe, non-mathematically, what happens after a star collapses or before a universe expands. Images of this sort are unavoidable whenever one is talking about God. One can only discuss he supernatural in natural terms. All information about supernatural or metaphysical realms has to be conveyed 'as if.' It's all symbol.
its writing style (even in hebrew) is so elementary that, well, i can generally read it (even in hebrew). Irrelevant. Multiple layers of meaning often exist where vocabulary and syntax are simple. The Giving Tree by Shel Silverstein is a book for children. Yet it can make their grandparents cry. How? Because it has literal meanings accessible to a child's mind and other meanings an adult's mind will discern. These co-exist in spite of the apparent artlessness of the storytelling. If anything, the simplicity of the storytelling makes these multiple meanings more resonant. A beginning speaker of English can understand every word in The Giving Tree. It would be a non sequiteur to argue that this proves anything about its author's intent that we take it only at a child's level, as literal fact. To say so would betray a profound misunderstanding of how stories work and place unwarranted limits on the author. The author is free to do whatever the author wants in the effort to communicate. I mentioned apparent artlessness. It is a mistake to assert that the Genesis narratives lack sophistication. Stories in Genesis often exhibit remarkably fine tuned structures and an intricate network of image motifs. They are very artfully written. This is well known among Hebrew experts . A good place to being exploring these facets of the 'writing style' is the translation of the Torah made by Everett Fox, published as The Five Books of Moses. Or explore the writings of the Hebrew scholar to whom he is most indebted: Martin Buber. You may also want to explore the analyses of Phylis Trible.
it would make no sense to open the book with an extended metaphor On the contrary, it makes all the sense in the world. There is no other way to begin. Not if you intend to start a book by describing a supernatural being whose existence and actions transcend the material universe.
it was written to record the traditions of the people, and the things that define their religion. the torah is the foundation of the many themes found later in the bible. I think I understood this, actually. Such a purpose proves nothing about literal intent--much less exclusively literal intent. You assume it does but you have never shown how this follows. All mythic stories use symbolic images. They often use simple narrative structures. And you have just stated the functions mythic stories exist to serve. For any people. Any culture. All mythic stories can be understood literally. All can also be understood symbolically. It depends less on the text than on the mind that encounters the story. Are we talking about a child's experience or an adult's experience? It takes more than a dictionary to come to terms with great works of world literature. Good writing starts with that kind of basic material but doesn't end there. Great texts last as long as they do, and inform the existence of succeeding generations as well as they do, precisely because of their ability to use language imaginatively to carry multiple layers of meaning. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your spelling books. _ Archer All species are transitional.
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Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3624 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
arachnophilia:
genesis is not a poetic book. genesis was not written to be artistic. Irrelevant. The Genesis narratives are very artfully written. This holds true regardless of whether they were written primarily for 'artistic purposes.' Metaphorical meanings appear in all kinds of writing. The essence of a meataphor is the use of an image 'as if.' We talk about one thing as if it was another. Often metaphors describe a thing less accessible to the five senses as if it was more so. Genesis 1 describes creation just this way. Everything is told on as as if basis. The narrative discusses the origin of the natural world as if an artisan went to work on a week-long creative project. The origin of the universe is a vast subject indeed. Yet this image allows the writer to make sure that everyone who has ever worked on such a project can get the idea. The choice of metaphor conveys important theological meanings. The universe doesn't exist because a crowd of deities had a quarrel, it says. It's here on purpose. All in a week's work for the artisan. The telling remains 'as if,' though, because the artisan in this case isn't human. The artisan is God. Instead of making a rug or an anvil he does make a universe. Instead of working with human-sized quantities of material and time, he works with God-sized quantities of everything. God's Creation Week spent working on a universe will necessarily be a very different thing, in quantity and quality, than a human week spent in a workshop making a rug. There's a vast difference in scale. It's built in. It's a common but mistaken assumption that metaphors--literary images--are a feature only of poetry or 'artistic' writing. Not so. 'As if' images appear wherever language is used. They appear in all genres, even today's scientific documents. 'Black hole' is such an image. 'Big Bang' is such an image. How poetic are physicists trying to be when they use these expressions? In each case a term's literal dictionary definition has been stretched to express a more complex and less literal (by the dictionary) idea. It is especially useful to use words in this way when one is trying to convey abstract, elusive, or sublime ideas. One such moment might be when a physicist tries to describe, non-mathematically, what happens after a star collapses or before a universe expands. Images of this sort are unavoidable whenever one is talking about God. One can only discuss he supernatural in natural terms. All information about supernatural or metaphysical realms has to be conveyed 'as if.' It's all symbol.
its writing style (even in hebrew) is so elementary that, well, i can generally read it (even in hebrew). Irrelevant. Multiple layers of meaning often exist where vocabulary and syntax are simple. The Giving Tree by Shel Silverstein is a book for children. Yet it can make their grandparents cry. How? Because the story has literal meanings accessible to a child's mind and other meanings an adult's mind will discern. These co-exist in spite of the apparent artlessness of the storytelling. The simplicity of expression actually helps make its range of meanings more resonant. A beginning speaker of English can understand every word in The Giving Tree. It would be a non sequiteur to argue that this proves anything about its author's intent that we take it only at a child's level, as literal fact. To say so would betray a profound misunderstanding of how stories work. It would place unwarranted restrictions on the author. The truth is that authors are free to do whatever they want in the effort to communicate. We do a better job as readers if we recognize this. Refusal to recognize the latitude authors enjoy does not make that freedom go away. I mentioned apparent artlessness. The same holds true of stories in Genesis. They employ a straight-ahead narrative style, but they also exhibit finely tuned literary structures and an intricate network of image motifs. The stories are very artfully written. This is well known among Hebrew experts. If you wish to begin exploring these facets of the Torah you would be in good hands with Everett Fox (The Five Books of Moses) or the Hebrew scholar to whom he is most indebted: Martin Buber. The analyses of Phylis Trible (God and the Rhetoric of Sexuality) are also very much worth your time.
it would make no sense to open the book with an extended metaphor On the contrary, it makes all the sense in the world. There is no other way to begin. Not if you intend to start a book by describing a supernatural being whose existence and actions transcend the material universe. One can only describe the supernatural through the use of natural images. Metaphor is built into the project.
it was written to record the traditions of the people, and the things that define their religion. the torah is the foundation of the many themes found later in the bible. I think I understood this, actually. Such a purpose proves nothing about literal intent--much less exclusively literal intent. On the contrary. All mythic stories use symbolic images. They often display simple narrative structures. And you have just stated the functions mythic stories exist to serve. For any people. Any culture. Mythic stories allow literal interpretations have always allowed literal interpretations by the naive. In more naive times this includes quite a number of people. But they simultaneously allow symbolic understandings that inform experience beyond this. Interpreters have been spotting such meanings in every age. The result depends less on the text than on the mind that encounters the story. Does that mind bring ot the text a child's experience or an adult's? Great stories last as long as they do, and inform the existence of succeeding generations as well as they do, precisely because of the freedom and ability storytellers have to create multiple layers of meaning. _ Edited by Archer Opterix, : Clarity. Archer All species are transitional.
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Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3624 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
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